VC4 Idex Belts
Hello,
I tried to fasten my belts but no matter what I try I always get a bad result.
Best I archived until now is attached.
What I tried: https://www.printables.com/model/151815-belt-tensioner-meter-9-mm-petg-prusament
Tuning the belts to 85 Hz with the "Realtiem Analysis"
and also what is in the commision guide.
Is there anything I missed?
Printables.com
Belt tensioner meter 9 mm, PETG Prusament by Locki | Download free ...
For 9 mm belts, print from PETG Prusament like original model | Download free 3D printable STL models
478 Replies
These are the input shapre graphs
same boat as you
curious to see what people say
graphs are similar to urs
1e3 usually means binding.
Check your belt path.
Also you gota lot of noise everywhere.
so e4 and up is what we should aim for?
That or e5, if it's super cleanish.
Checked belts several times but it won't be better.
I have the feeling that the x axis linear rail feels a bit stiff when belts are thightened to the right amount.
I already checkt if it is bent but it seems to be straight.
There are some severe mehanical issues if you have these graphs on the X especially.
X / DC should be "easy" to get cleaner graphs.
If you get this on X as well you have some mehanical stuff as I said.
Recheck, triple check everything
I checked all bearings also the belt paths and the rails.
What else can I do?
You are binding somewhere, so either your rails are at the front/back not the same
Or something is putting imense stress
@Prav Is more a belt tension guy, if he can help.
Is there a guide I can follow?
Since I dissasambled and reassambled and checked alot of these things I may miss the solution I'm searching for.
Now that everything was dissasambled and reassambled again. I have better results but again something seems to be off.
how tight are ur bearing stacks?
@D00M-_ which ones do you mean?
all of them
try loosening them a bit and see what changes
also, have you tried to vibrate the machine using realtime analysis and see what it sounds like?
I will try to loosen them a bit. I tried the realtime analysis yes but I didn't find anything loose or else something off
did you got through the axis?
x, y, x+y, x-y?
what frequency did you tune ur belts to?
just tried y because I assumed that that's the one with issues, x belts to 85,4 Hz and the hybrid y belts to 95,5 Hz
what did u use to meassure?
I tired to find the resonance which creats the peaks
did you do this with realtime? where u have the toolhead in the center and you pluck the belt and see what frequency peak comes up?
also how do ur meassure belt graphs look
loosening the bearing stacks didn't change anything
by loosening did you make then have play or are they still secure? i had weird vibrations because i overtightended them
they are still secure
is the gantery square?
yes
try tunning the y belts at a lower frequncy
Those are the belt graphs
y look better then x
even tho ur input shaper is the other way around
in ur x graph they are not equal tension
Random question (throwing rice at the wall): could unequal belt length cause this?
dono, i tired to get them equal. Cut them in half then messured the ends of the belts coming out of the grabbers
and they are equal
im in the same boat as him
y is always fucked
Hmm, I just finished my toolhead assembly so only have accessories, panels and electronics left to do. Will continue after 14d holiday and will stay engaged here once I can talk with my own belt graphs experience.
The lack of guides reguarding this really sucks
It would be great if in the assembling guide would be a "how to fasten the belts".
There is for the standard one. But nothing there translates to idex
You have
Extreme noise
SOmething is loose.
Either a bolt or something
Anything above 110 I think it something usually loose or vibrating, etc.
so apart from taking it apart a 5th time or using realtime analysis and going through the frequencies. What else would u recommend as a diagnostic method
Best bed is the toolhead, that something is perhaps loose, all wires and stuff should be ziptied and they should not move at all.
Next thing i suggest is checking how tight you actually ar.
Maybe you are too tight on the Y?
Wires are ziptied
When they resonate they slap the extrusion
That is normal
when you change tension do you deconnect the blocks ?
But 125 just screems somehting is not idealy tightened or is loose. Like a bolt or somehting, the rapido as well can be vibrating if its not snug etc.
Wdym, disconnecto the blocks?
used purple locktight on that
On what, the rapido?
the top bots holding the whole asembly
before everytime i would change tension the gantery would skew
so now to avoide that i unscrew them and change
If it skews your belt length is not the samw
If it's all the same you wouldn't have this issue belt length wise
so whats a good way to fix the belt issue?
what i did was:
Cut the belts in half, then count the teeth left out of the grabber
on both sides there are 15 teeth left
also another thing, if the printer is left alone, the belt tenssion changes
one hour ago both peaks where the same amplitude and now they are different
gantry is still square
The amplitude say it's not the same because from the grabber if your gantry isn't perfect you can easily. Miss a teeth
You should remove the belts and count it that way.
they where placed side by side and compared
under tension
and when instaned i clamped the gantry to the front of the printer
so it woudnt move
Y belts are equal to the tooth
And so is x
@VisualTech48 same with mine?
Then put them back at the same tooth and put the machine all the way back. Them tighten the x and dc belts while keeping it flush with the back plates.
Once you've tighten jt enough put the y belts
And then do the same.
Also when your put the the x rail to the back make sure that your toolheads are both in the middle
You can even zip tie them together while your doing this then after you've tighten it remove the zip tie and adjust based on graphs.
i cant visualize this. In what way do you zip tie them
also do the front tensioners have to be equal?
I'll show it when I get to my pri ter.
The machine is imperfect the front tensioners tell you nothing.
Don't focus if they are the same way in.
Graphs will tell you that.
before adding the belts i mean, If one is further in the the other. Would that make one belt longer then the other
?
Without tension you can't tell because you can rack it easily by hand.
ok, i will start getting the belts in the motor mounts and wait for the ziptie trick
Its not really hard to grasp, I've tried to explain it
oh, i thought u ment ziptie the belts somehow
ok will try now
@Anrot might as well do this together. Our graphs where similar and we both did the same troubleshooting before:D
I'm on it
IDEX is difficult, but with patiance you will get there.
@VisualTech48 aight followed all the instructions and now im here
how do i get it equal now without breaking it XD
Don't do y belt tension on idex. For idex for y you look at the is.
It's the same freq but different amplitude. Which means if the belts are the same like you claim some part of the path is longer.
im doing is now
Ie your motor mounts could not be perfect with the extrusion. But the graph is cleaner now
Run is let's see
Would this much deviation cause the longer belt path?
And the other side
I see gaps.
Well your belt tension grapg
Basicly says that one of your belt is longet
But they are at the same tension
It's okey to have that but I feel it's a tad too much gap between them in your case
here is the is
ill loosen the belts and get the motor mounts flush
then ill do it all again
You still have some noise on the lower end of hz now that can be anything really.
But by the looks of it it's basicly the same tension so you just need to clean it up
Look for input shaper on YouTube maybe there could be a bit more info what could it be as well
Tried what you told us. I think I'm will use the printer as a table. No matter what I do it is always a mess.
I don't understand why you folks jsut drop the towel, this is a DIY printer, the idex was known and it is far more difficult to tune.
Have patience, and go from slack
Towards more tense
First make your your X and DC is tight enough
Then go to the Y belts.
So its tense but not too tnese, as if you go overboard by just 1/8 of the screw you can have horrid graphgs.
You are still binding somewhere.
somehow one belt is shorter then another. When the gantry is at the back and both toolheads are in the center, and i tighten the x/dc belt so the gantery is square. If i pluck each belt there is a noticable change in frequency. So my question is, which belt do i shorten and which belt do i make longer?
Pluck test is not the best method.
On the IDEX that is at leeast.
Because no machine is perfect, so if you combine a lot of minor differences in distance, you can have that.
This usually again indicates, difference in belt leght, if its the same hz but different amplitude. Usually.
It should be a bit closer basicly, overlapping would be ideal.
so remove teeth from the right and add to the left?
or just do one side?
The issue stems that Y as well pulls the gantry. You can try in your case, if we look at this graph, to release 1 tooth from the right toolhead, and then tension it again to be the same hz.
It should come far closer.
This was after doing the motor mounts
im a try this
Try it, and the Y graphs indiciate an issue, in your case at least. You managed to nail the same hz, but you have issues with 125+ hz which is something again, saddly loose.
You can easily see how Y effects it, if you pull one more of the y and you will see some changes on X as well.
Find the cause of this, it will help as well.
could the loose part be anywhere on the printer or just the motion side?
Could be even a fan 😄
Its that sensitive.
Doesn't mean it will affect your prints though but it can.
ill start taking parts off then :))
Just tighten stuff, see what could be loose.
I had a t nut that didn't grab correctly on my sides
And it showed on the grahp
this might be something to look at
im a redo the rails then
just to be sure
You'd be suprized how many stuff can resonante. It again doesn't mean 100% it will affect your prints.
That is why you should not go for perfection but yeah Y is a mess.
When Y is somewhat decent you run an acceleration test, and a VFA test.
I think someone has a 3.1 idex and has amazing speeds and such
With not ideal graphs seemingly.
tightened everything that i could
back to the previous step
havent touched the belts
This is actually good.
You have it Criss Corss
Now you do one belt or the other, and it should "stabilize"
how many teeth should i aim for
ball park it
I'm not sure 100% but basicly if you tighten your right Y, your Left (X) should tighen more.
Which should bring you up to speed, now with Y belts.
Even the 1/8 can cause your graphs to be wobbly,
So do it bit, remember what you moved and then retest.
my alen keys have about 1/10 play :))
going to be interesting
did 1/8 turn on y right and this is the result. X left went up. X right also went up
y right went down and so did y left
im a do anoter 1/8 and do a z-tilt after and see whats up
that 2nd peak is coming back on y
Try to if you enagage left more to decrese right etc.
What he means when he says binding is that somewhere a pully/idler is rubbing or a pully/ idler is broken. Are you using the stock ones or the heavy duty? To check you need to spin them freely with ur hand and see if u feel resistance or its staggering
I use the Stock ones, all a Spinning freely
3D Printers & a Whiteboard
YouTube
How to Read and Analyze Input Shaper Graphs Generated by Klipper
This video is supposed to be a brief overview on what the input shaper graphs can tell us. It is the first video of a series of videos which will give a more in depth view on the kinematic system and input shaping in Klipper.
As always: feel free to jump to those parts, that help you with your problems:
00:00 Intro
00:57 What we can learn from...
something has to be rubbing then
find the problem and u will have better graphs
@Anrot I got the same/ a similar problem in the very beginning:
And I also double and triple checked everything. In the end I just used trial and error, just adjusting belt tensions.
Now, just tightening the X-belts I got from the above graphs to this:
Its far from perfect, but shows very clearly, that just one (exactly!) revolution with the screwdriver to tighten the X-belts can sometimes make those huge spikes disappear.
I will try to start over again. Maybe i dissasembly the Idex belts and start with the core xy
im here now XD
1/8 turns at a time
I suspect that those belts rub against the extrusion in the very back when they are to loose
this staggered line is very similar on both of ours
cant wait for one of us to share what causes it:))
regarding the misaligned x-peaks; Should I try to get both to the 50-75 Hz range or how did you proceed?
could be a belt lenght issue
I thought so too... Well I think I will try every possible X-adjustment first and then doing Y and we'll see whether I have to disassemble.
same boat as u
The 3.1 was also a process... Took seemingly way longer to get properly assembled but without the idex tuning was pretty fast
3.1 compared to this was a cake walk. Had that calibrated in one afternoon
im a week deep in this one now
I assembled this one in about 28 hours and only had minor difficulties, biggest one was searching for the heavy duty idler pulleys I bought and haven't found till this day 😭
input shaper update. I have both y's on EI
better then 2hump_EI i was getting before
what do I do in such a case where one peak "disappears"?
Here the corresponding shaper graphs, the T1 graphs look horrendeous
I had this happen, means you went to far loosen both sides and start again
any idea what you did to smooth the 45 peak?
also the 120hz thing can be the umbilical. Might want to tie those together the 40% of the way from the back panel
i havent had time to play with it this weekend
i'm here now again I don't understand why now Y seems ok but x is catastropic
I think ur x is too tight
Tune it to 60hz
Around that range
with 60 Hz it is like this
Looks better tbh
thx for the suggestion of 60 Hz this is now the best I archived
Now the y is the issue that is problem 😂
Im still struggling this that one also
@Portolasas has better y then us
Dude managed mzv
😭
This thread will get more populated as more people get the idex and run into the same hurdles 😂
Yes a bit more instruction in this topic would be great
any idea how to move on?
Damn son
Sexy
And is?
not so sexy
I get the same peak at 50 and 125
Thats a lot of vibration on y
U need to find the cause of that
Im also trying to find it
@VisualTech48 any guidance from here?
@Anrot Have you tried to ziptie the two umbilicals half way together
?
It helped a bit with the 125hz vibration for me
No they are not the ziptied toghether but the filament pipe(?) is ziptied to it
Try ziptieing them together half way through
Also
Do u have filament in ur extruders?
And also, do u have the oss?
yes filament is in. Whats oss?
Filament sensors for orbiter
ah no not jet
Interesting, i have them and was wondering if they where part of the vibration
U just saved me disassembling them 😂
😅
Our graphs are very similar
Actually all 3 of ours
Same peaks
Dose you electronics panel vibrate?
a bit but would say this seems to be normal
Stick some rubber or foam in it to dampen it
See if it helps
It would be great to have a list where parts of the printer and Hz are corresponding. For example the 50 Hz may be this or that.
We are the guinea pigs 😂
Y and X are both very much not independent, I have tried so much, I may be able to share later, but I am currently not at home
Should I try to bring the X and Y resonance together?
Try it and see what happens
Im at a christening so tmr ill get back on it
Sorry to say but since I invested about 20h in tuning belts and nothing really good came out I feel like Ratrig doesn't really care about us to get this printer working.
To be honest until now I don't know how exactly I should start to tune them.
My printer now is super slow (benchy 1h) and still the quality is not good.
I understand it takes time but since we don't know what to do we are just guessing around.
I'm really sorry for you. I think the only thing that RatRig is really doing wrong is that they market the product a little bit wrong. It is simply not the case that everyone canbulit such a machine especially with the many new members to 3d printing. I started in 2019 and have rebuilt another printer to suit my own needs. I also built a V-core 3 and then upgraded it to a 3.1. Buying the 4 I very much knew which struggles I would have to endure and that there is no "out-of-the-box-experience".
You need some mechanical, electrical and OS-experience to really be able to fix issues in an efficient manner and can feel very easily lost if you don't. I have an engineering background and thereby also some foundation which I can rely on. So of course some things might seem like common sense to me but might not to somebody else. And knowing very well that I have already struggled quite a bit with my setup I can understand your frustration.
Two things to always keep in mind: So many people bought the 500 without needing it. I have a small business and I am looking into increasing my capabilities. A bigger printer isn't better; especially speed-wise. More moving mass means less speed, bigger tolerances (many that add up). And even more: A printer with two toolheads introduces more sources of resonance, even more mass and ESPECIALLY the two extra belts multiply the possible tightening scenarios by 4. The don't add to the other two, but are multiplating.
So now some general findings of my own; keep in mind this is no scientific study; I just test and assume some fundamental findings. They might be wrong.
1. for X you want to have ZV or MZV and one high peak. Only one toolhead is moving from left to right, so ideally only the resonance frequency of the print head should ideally be visibale. In my case they don't perfectly align, which is okay since they have a different weight and thereby may also have a different frequency.
2. As also mentioned in the comissioning guide, don't focus to much on the belt tension graphs. Since X and Y belts both assert force on X-axis, they are not independent. In my tests I would suggest to start with very low tensions and slowly increase them. First, create the peaks like above for X by tightening those belts, leave Y alone. For me this seems basic knowledge but ALWAYS watch the 1e4, 1e5, etc. It seems like many people don't understand that this is the scale of the axis. So e.g. 1e4 means take the number on the axis and multiply by 10^4. Of course, if your dominant peak increases in amplitude the "side" peaks seem smaller even though quite often they stay the same.
3. Focus on the shaper graphs. What you want to achieve is acceleration and not perfectly aligned belt tensions. From what I noticed, in my case, the gantry stayed square.
4. One eighth of a revolution can often make quite the difference. Many people said that and its true. Move slowly and patiently. Remember, that at least for the Y-belts, tightening the right side a bit is more or less the same as un-tightening the left side a bit. This is less the case for X, since you have two carriages which are not connected but still here you have some dependencies which may seem huge.
5. For The Y peaks I aimed for at least 5000 mm/s^2 accelaration and got after many rounds of fine adjusting these graphs:
damn, those look fine
what ballpark frequency did you tune those to?
also, what tips did you learn along the way for tuning y?
They ain't perfectly pretty, but after the testing I have done its totally okay to have two peaks since it seems like the other carriage at the end of the axis always introduces its own frequency. The 100HZ+ range of frequencies are unavoidable. In many graphs they are just seemingly very small pecause the peak is at 1e6. Tightening together part of the wire looms and the PTFE tubes helped a lot with those frequencies.
Thanks @Portolasas its also not my first printer to build but this hybrid system is in my opinion way more diffucult than standard corxy.
I will try to handle me through your guid there.
6. For tightening I would suggest the following method: Start loose - tighten X with belt tension graphs so that they are as best aligned as possible - Generate shaper graphs and slowly tighten Y at both side simultaneously - When you get better results switch to X and slowly adjust one side at a time - Then back to Y.
Aim for an accelarion you want to reach and be happy when you get there. Don't want more and more. NEVER adjust X and Y at the same time, this introduces so many things you can't foresee. I always did a M84 followed by a homing after tightening, because by tightening the belts you may introduce a gantry twist and thereby "wrong shaper graphs which aren't the same after a restart.
Also, there are definetly local maxima of accelaration. So if, for example, you tighten X and the results get worse and you loosen X afterwards and they also get worse you might be at such a local maxima. I suc a case I always switched to the other axis so in this example to Y and continued there.
Here are my tension graphs:
You can clearly see the two Y-peaks and the more or less one x-peak. As mentioned, don't focus on the 100+Hz Y frequencies to much. An exception is if they get to similar amplitude as the main peaks. Then you have a twist, are to tight or to loose.
And even though I got to MZV for the Y-axes and I would say that this is a generally good indication of a good tune, EI or Two-Hump EI or sometimes Three-Hump EI, was what I had most of the time. You should watch a general input shaper explanation beforehand to understand what those regression methods mean and where they differ. Accelleration is, of course, important but so are little vibration and smoothing. So keep that in mind.
So I hope that helps you guys a bit and everyone that comes after. In total I needed about 30 measurements before I got this results. But ideally you should need less, since I played around quite a bit to get a better understanding of the interactions of the behaviors of the printer.
In the beginning you can also make bigger adjustments e.g. quarter (or sometimes half revolutions), until you get in the range where the graphs look good. But I suggest you move slow so you don't miss the turn 😉
@VisualTech48 @Helge Keck Feel free to check the info i have given, maybe some conclusions where utterly wrong, so I can clarify them. Maybe we can also put the thread in the Idex channel for better visibility - if it helps of course.
This is my actual effort
i tried to bring x and y peak together but I since one will get to loose and the other to stiff it seems not to be possible
@Anrot You might have other issue if your graphgs are as wild as I see this.
You are all over the palce saddly, my best suggestion would to really make sure everything is TIGHT, and by tight i Dont mean the belts I mean the actually printer.
I didn't have this extreme noise I think even with my 3.1.
Toolhead has to be top notch
Zipeties, not too much strain for the umbilical
Making sure its all snug, and no bolt is vibratiing on the toolhead.
Making sure that the EBB is really mounted firmly.
That your path of the Y is correct, and that the belts don't dance
Y belts are the same lenght
That the Y joiner is tight enough and that the x gantry is not racking.
Thx @VisualTech48, but I tried all those tips already and cant find anything loose. I tried the built in analysis tool to find the source of the resonaces but again no finding. I'm out of Ideas.
Did you check if you are racking?
y moves also freely
take pics
of all the joints
Moving freely, but are the distances from thje motor plates the same left and right?
yes they are the same also the frame is square and the rails a paralell
@Portolasas where your belts equal or did you have to adjust by a tooth or two?
@VisualTech48 hi, seeing as you machine is dialed in. Could we see all your graphs? for reference purposes, just to see what we should aim for
@D00M-_ What I had 1-2 month ago:
But I change my machine a lot
I think this was a test with the Dual Rail if I'm not mistaken
Basicly you want clean peaks,
But even my graphs are not the cleanest.
But you should not really go for the cleanest graph but rather best print quality.
The idex is complicated really it is, you can, and should always when you get okey graphs actually run the thing, and run perhap a Input Shaper test print.
Too see if it actually causes issues.
good stuff thank you.
Is this a 500?
400
The lower HZ is due to again my heavy gantry at the time.
I run around 55 if I'm not mistaken
alright, more work to be done then 😄
Yeah saddly idex is complicated, and a far higher curve to do proper. You'll get there with patiance.
Ask Helge how much time I spent on mine at first.
ive followed ur comment stream so i know it took months 😛
@Anrot do u have a top panel on you machines?
not yet, just the backplate
add a top to it
it compresses the loom and reduces some of the vibrations
without top and with top
no change to the belts
i have to add that my top dosent use magnets but is bolted on
Re run it a few times see whats what, but again, when you get okey graphs
Run them actually.
With a test if need be
And see if its causing any troubles.
Well it is an uphill battle saddly. Again, change someting and then try again. Your 75+ basicly means somethingt again on the toolhead or the umbiiclal etc could be loose.
i sent the wrong graph
that was without top
this is with
im going to try to tune the peak lower a bit
be at 50
If you are on 400 @D00M-_ default I think you can get 55 easily. Let me check.
im on 500
I see, well these were among my "first" stock IDEX graphs:
what upgrades did you do?
Nothing that is needed, different hotend (Rapido ACE), Titanium Gantry, 5160s, custom top electronics bay, and custom Y belt holder.
I'm getting closer, very slowly but closer.
I struggle to bring x and y resonacne toghether.
Has anyone played with the belt lenght to change the frequency?
Normally I have to make Y longer to lower the frequency, maybe I shift it for a few tooths.
did u but the top on?
No, I dissasembled parts of the printers again and tuned belts again. Top is not attached yet.
Yours seem to look way better what die you do?
added the top on, hotglued some wiggely connectors on the toolheads, and started tunning from very loose belts
Strange thing is no matter what i try those two peaks won't come toghether
What did you do to get it smoothed out?
I did what you told me 😅
dude, 8000 on y is great
take the win
go drink a beer
over night my graphs broke
@VisualTech48 any idea what this indicates?
Well belts streach initially.
You basicly gotta brake down the belts a bit
And the temeprature affects it as well keep in mind
uff
@VisualTech48 i need some adivce. Ive hit a roadblock. X is good but my y is having issues. nothing i do gets the right belt to come up
tried everything but i dont understand why its not moving
ive tighted 1/8 at a time and got a a full revolution and its the same graph
and x stays racked and pretty
Don't look at this.
The Y belt graph is not really that important.
You want the IS graphs
This is important,
then i got them to align and both peaks where sexy i got good is
but noted
im running now to see whats up
X is important that the belt graphs match
But you want it not racking and if that is the case, run a IS graph
I'm guessing this is a 300 or 400mm build. I had awesome graphs with the Hybrid on my 500. IDEX is giving me a fit
One thing that helped me tune the Hybrid was the excite axes feature in Shake-tune. You set the frequecy to where your problem is and you usally can hear it. I would then touch each belt to see wich was giving me problems. The realtime analyst in Rat OS pulses a little differenty. I can't hear it as well but sometimes I can see which belt is vibrating. Still wrapping my head around IDEX because it's not really a core xy anymore. Just x t0 and x t1 with a cartesian Y
he has a 400
anrot, portolasas and i have a 500
hybrid knowledge dosnt translate
I think this might have been mentioned but for me as soon as I put the lid on my problems went away. I think the way the umbilical cords are joined in the back they amplify one another. On the 500 the cords are pushed down by the lid dampening them. My graphs looked like your all's and I was ready to give up for the day when I did one last test with the lids. This is just my first day messing with it. I was mentioning the hybrid because it was tricky and the same techniques of listening to and watching the belts at the right frequency apply. At least on mine
Im having a heck of a time getting a good graph/ above 4k on y. Are you guys running 500s? If so mind sharing your toolhead to joiner X and tensioner to y block frequencies? Ive had the toolheads both apart and the joiners making sure everything was tight and square and still struggling
85hz Toolhead to Joiner, 95hz tensioner to hybrid y block
Yeah we have 500s
Your y is too tight
dont use frequencies for this. They will confuse you
use this method when tightening - https://discord.com/channels/582187371529764864/1296131270920900720/1296847960939958353
if u need a starting point for belt tension
Printables.com
Belt Tension Gauge by Tom Anderson (The Real NEO) | Download free S...
Here is a belt Tension gauge for 5 mm and 6mm wide belts.
I have Included the Fusion360 files for adjustments. | Download free 3D printable STL models
start at low
and work your way up
use the belt tension graph only for x
get those to match
then go do y with IS
My problem was that those freqencies are too tight on my machine. I have also a 500
this is a different one
starts really low
i also used the one u posted at the begining and it was so conffusing
no i mean 85 Hz and 95Hz
yea
tunning to the 2nd marker on y gave me MZV right from the start on Y
ah good to know. It would be great if Ratrig would malke such a tool for us poor mortal souls to have a good starting point
Hello everybody 😁 I have the same problem
Updated to hybrid and idex and now it looks like this
too tight
all of it is too tight
read the whole thread from the top
Oh okay hmm how much hz do you recommend (have also a 500) ?
I set it up on 85 and the hybrid on 95
(Used a trummeter like this https://amzn.eu/d/bApebVd)
dont use that
its irrelevant here
follow from here
https://discord.com/channels/582187371529764864/1296131270920900720/1300347697185951826
Ah okay but why ? I thought the belts must have a specific Tension
two toolheads vs one
everything here is completly diffierent then hybrid/normal
Ah okay it’s my first Idex don’t know this is a difference
But this is only for 6mm
Make this a difference?
look in the files
there is a 9
I only see 6 and 5 sorry if I am dumb 😂 but can’t see a 9mm version
no, im dumb
put the wrong linkl
Printables.com
Belt Tension Gauge (source file included) by Chip | Download free S...
2GT belt Tension Meter… | Download free 3D printable STL models
Ah okay haha thank you will print it now
start at the second tick from the bottom
then look at the video also and follow that when tightening
https://discord.com/channels/582187371529764864/1296131270920900720/1296847960939958353
Okay where do I have to put this on ? And where should the head be
dosnt matter
aim for the middle
its only to get u started
after you get the relativly tensioned, stop using it and focus on the graphs
belt tension for x
and is for y
dont look at belt tension for y or u will be chasing ghosts
this will take hours so get ready to go nuts
and if u finish and ur happy but u bump the gantry in the back or front it will screw up the tension and u have to do it again
Very nice sounds like fun 😂🤮
tunning idex is like being 16 and trying to find the g spot XD
Hahaha Shit 😂
Without doing anything I am in the middle so I have to go down or ?
second tick
start there
Ah 😂 yes
Forgot I have hybrid
This is Moore low
the higher u go in tensions the more ur graphs look like they have ADD
Okay good to know 😁
do them all like that
then do x tension graph
and then adjust to get them equal
They are all like this
r u belts equal?
to the tooth?
Puh don’t know for shure
if they are not
u will have a bad day
I thought only the tension is important
😂
think about this
Okay okay 😂
and even then if they are equal, u still might need to play with letting one tooth go or pulling on
best way is to messure teeth left out of the extruders
for y u need to compare them
You mean here ?
other side
This one
yes
count the teeth
make sure they are equal
Okay should be equal
when u cut y, where they equal?
Yes
Make 1 tooth a difference?
yes
especially on x
I don’t know if the belts are 100% same length on x
Cut it 8 weeks ago
if i where u id check
or u will be chasing ghosts
So loosen the belts take it off and look at it
Or 😥
take them off
tape them on the floor
and see if they are equal
Okay
then do the tooth messuring thing for x and for y
also tie ur ubilicals together half way to the toolheads starting from the back
tie the ptfe tube also
What do you mean ?
This is how I have it now
tie them together about half way to the toolheads
make sure they can still move
also when doing any sort of test, put the lid on
Had 3 tooth Moore on one belt
make them equal
Did it
Now back in
same for y too
So after doing this for all belts
And the inputshaper graphs are generated right now
dont do y tensions graph\
I only click on the generate belt graphs
this looks like its either too tight or something is loose
click the arrow and select just x
Ah nice don’t saw this till now
also do 1/4 on both x
and go tension graph again
there is no point in doing IS if ur x is not equal
focus just on that
What do you mean
Okay
turn 1/4 turn on both x
tighten them
Ah okay
i never saw such flat blue line O_O
blue line is too tight
u should be doing 1/8 turns at a time
then u will see the line either go up or down
there is a threshold tightness where it just disapears
and looks like this
I tried a couple of thightness levels from very low to thight and literly nothing changed :/ But i can try again a far less tighness
do 1/4 back
on blue
then u reach the maximum u will know, then just take off the yellow
all ur asjustment should be 1/8 turns at a time
thanks, i try it
Good morning @D00M-_
No matter what I do if I loosen or thighten the belts I don’t get it really better
I already checked the screws and everything twice
where is the yellow belt?
I only did the t1 head because the t0 head looks at first okay or „better“
Give me a second will make both heads
do 1/8 turn losening on the blue line
also, have you done realtime analysis ?
No not now
vibrate the printer and see if anything is loose?
How do you mean ?
enter real time anaysis
go and start it
and then go to the other tab and choose frequency and mode
looks too tight
or something is loose
Where is frequency ? Don’t find it at the real time
This one
tools
And now ?
go and start it
Yes
But what should I do it with this now
i would show u pictures but mine is dead =)) dosnt want to open
ill type
what u want to do is have t0 in the middle
start the real time anaylsis
then go to tools
select x
and move the slider slowly
up
like 5 hz ever 5 seconds
and then listen to the printer
and hear if anything is ratteling
if there is ratteling, find it with ur finger. Touch parts of it until it stops
then do this again by selecting y
and the x+y
and then x-y
then to it all again with t1
have fun=))
Ah okay thank you
Now I tested and don’t find any loose things
Then I loosen the belts to the minimum of the scale (from your print file yesterday) and this came out
nice
Then thighten a Little Bit more and This
Is this good ?
go back to this
then untighten yellow by 1/8 turn
Okay
So this is what I got now
What is your opinion?
And this is the is
do more tunning
also y is too tight
Is this now good ?
get the peaks to be the same height
And why do we have only one Rash I thought we need two
rash?
Peeks
Or what is the name for
idex needs both to be equal
the fact that each toolhead is independant needs this
if they are not equal
then u do vaoc there will be error
s
Ah okay so if I have one toolhead I need two and with Idex I need one or ?
For example this is what I need for one head
thats when u have two belts for one head
here u have one belt one head
Ahhh
u should get only one peak
Okay
Thank you
and they have to be perfectly overlaped
1/2% dif max
Okay 👍
until u have that done, there is no point in doing IS for y
also, after every motification to tension
m84
then home
you should also check gantry squareness by moving toolheads to center and all the way back
Ah okay this is what I don’t do
What does m84
turns off steppers
Ah okay
Without the belts it was perfect
Will check if the graph looks good
is it not perfect now?
Don’t looked again since then
look now
no point in moving forward if its not square
It’s not 100% perfect but if I loose the belts then it is
not good then
do this https://discord.com/channels/582187371529764864/1296131270920900720/1296847960939958353
wow, your belts are fucked
What do you mean
hes fucking with you
And what is the problem here is?
dont you see that?
they are broken
Where ?
i dont see it either, are you refering to the color
take a close up of the blocks
ohhh, its the y belt block, LMAO
Yes 😁
@03Julian04 loosen all ur belts. Do the tensioner trick on just one of the x belts and then get the gantery square by tighening the opposite belt. As you tighten it the tension in the belt with the tension meter will decrease.
dont do y until u have x square
follow the video for positioning the toolheads
after u tighen a bit move the gantery back and forth the get the belts to stabilize
do this until u get the joiners to stay flush with the motor mounts
then do y belts to minimum tension
Okay also without the belts it is not aligned
then u have to get it square
u tightented to much and got it out of square
loosen the joiners and get it perfect
Yes
Will do it
@Cruz for idex comisioning guide, this is the best place to get inspired on steps:D
What do you think do I have to do if the blue is too low ? Thighten or loosen the belt or could it be both ?
have you reached the threshold of x?
if u do another 1/8 turn tight on blue
dose it go up or down
?
Yes bevor i thoghten the belts it was perfectly aligned on the back
not what i asked
Okay what do you ask for ?
.
.
If I thighten the left one 1/4
This came out but the problem is that if I put the x back then the left side is too far away so normally the right side have to be thighter
What do you think
i think you should have 2 peaks and not jsut one
there is something wrong
most likely binding belts somewhere
On idex too ?
you cant fix that with belt tension
ohh this is IDEX
Yes
then the belt tension graph is useless anyway
it only tells you if you have vibrations or not
Even for x?
Okay then what should i look at
the belt tension grpah helps you to equalize the corexy belts
How much tension ?
more improtant is the input shaper graph
And at what do I have to look there ?
but your orange line tells you that you suffer from some vibraitons
its minor though
you need to make sure that your tension still provides a square gantry
this is key
also, the y belts affect this graph as well
thats why input shaper is more improtant for a idex
And how much tension
if you ahve too much tension on the idex your input shaper grpahs are fucked
Without equal tension on x, all my is graphs where shit
As soon as i had equal x i had mzv on is for x
Then it was easy to do y
this isnt necessarily the tensionm these graphs do not tell you anything about the needed tension, these belts are not connected to the same hotend
Tried this and vaoc was shit. When i fixed it it worked
My way worked for me
of course you need similar tension on both toolheads, i jsut say this graph doesnt necessarily tells you the right tension
input shapoer graphs are more reliable for idex
What was your process for getting belts tuned well? I'm ashamed to admit this but I've got 12+ hours tweaking and running graphs trying to get a good result. My best shaper was 8k x and 4k y. I wrote down the tensions I was at and tweaked more trying to get better thinking I could readjust to those tensions and get that result back if needed. Now I can't even get back there
make sure all belts have the exact same length, make sure the are identical inserted in all belt blocks on y and the toolheads, make sure the front belt tensioner are equal and then make sure the gantry is square
then tune T0 and then T1 then Y
make small adjustments to tune all of them
there is a relationship between Y and X/DC, if there are disharmonies you get shitty grpahs
takea about 15 mintues to get ok input shaper graphs
assuming you do not suffer from vrbations
Guess I'm pulling belts and counting teeth - everything is square and I've had tool head, joiners, and stacks apart to rebuild and check
I assumed tensioners could make up for any length difference
jsut for reference this is the goal for y for example
https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/878966049616297984/1174868828111519784/idex_is.png?ex=6722269c&is=6720d51c&hm=317a173fa53cdc6e26039206acbbd59fc439a06228de76f4a6ac8c5283a1df7a&=&format=webp&quality=lossless
what oyu see here is a completely vibration free graph for a idex
Wow 11600 acc
thats an old graph from my VC3.1 IDEX
with the VC4 300 you can reach about 15k if its perfectly tuned
but mainstream 10k is the goal
And the 500
i have no experience with a 500 IDEX
idk
but i assume you should be able to get 5 or 6 k
Okay I will see where I get
I am doing right now the is will see where I am
i short, get rid of any vibration, make sure y and x/dx belts are harmonized
So do you think this is good for x
try it
What can the problem be if y is rubbish ?
Like this
make small adjsutments on y, repeat is grpah, and repeat repeat repeat
Can it only be the belts from the hybrid ?
Or can it also be the belts from the heads ?
Looks too tight
Once u finish with x, go do y, then come back to x as changes on y might impact x
Now I think I got it
its a start
now do one with copy and mirror mode and you will see some magic
How do I do this ?
1. home printer
2. enable copy mode
4. run input shaper
Ah okay
Can I also use copy mode like this ? Or do I have to activate it in the slicer too ?
thats how you do it
the slicer doesnt care about it
So I slice one object and then activate copy mode and the printer copy it ?
And where do I have to place the model on the plate ?
you jsut print as usual but you enable copy mode before
Do I have to think the middle
the printer or the slcier do nto really copy the object
the printer doesnt even know that you use copy mode
you place a object i the middle of the plate and print
Ah okay and how big can it be ? 250mm wide ?
copy mode half the build plate, mirror mode less
Okay thank you
but i HIGHLY recommend to not use copy or mirror mode yet
you should print first successfully soem prints at least
if everything works reliable then you can do that
@Helge Keck on his y1 graph, ive seen the exact same double peak on a lot of graphs including my own. What causes this? Any idea
disharmonic x and y belt
there are 3 indivudual belts that need to work together
if they dont you get these graphs
so u still need more tunning then to get it right
dose printer size make it harder?
not really
looking forward when yall gonna add belt tennsion sensors and automate all this
Adaptive Belt Tensioning:D
keep dreaming, do something for your money
This is with copy mode enabled
without dreamers there would be nothing cool on this earth:D And i do, i make concrete crap and lamps:P
u have a bit of vibration in ur umbilical
is it resonating against the top?
No this was with no top on it
add it
will improve the graphs
Okay will test this later
@D00M-_ @Helge Keck how is this possible
I only change the place of the printer
my guess is you twisted the frame and it applied pressure on the belts
or your floor is uneaven and its twisting the frame
Oh men this thing is making me crazy
@D00M-_ Which value do I write in the config ? The lowest of every one or do I write every value ?
yeah the lowest
for single each value
for copy and mirror the lowest
Can you send a foto of your config so I know how to write it
im not home atm
there is a section in printer.cfg
at the top in the macro section
where you fill in the blanks
Here ?
no, for a idex remove that section
add thsi instead
Ah Okay thank you
hello again and good morning (if the timezone fits;). I have a issue, and im a little bit confused: Wether i measure X or Y Axsis, every time the PSD is far lower on the left side (100 Times lower, i.e. 60.000 instead of 2.000.000) i tried every tension from extremly low to like an iron rod. In the best case i reached 80.000.
The right side is a poc to adjust for x and y axis
pics or it didnt happen 🙂
right and left x-tension is almost the same and gantry perfectly aligned
all idler pulleys controlled, belt always in the middle of pulleys
hand-movement feels very smooth
maybe tool-board damaged ?
Dont look at Y tensions grahps
But your X is fucked 😄
What is the size of the printer?
You could overtensioned it.
Thus lkoosing one of the amplitudes.
In you rcase the T0 toolhead
less is more @XHeli
if its a 500 then ur way over tensioned
Yes I can agree haha it looks like waaay too lose but that was perfect