VC4 Idex Belts
Hello,
I tried to fasten my belts but no matter what I try I always get a bad result.
Best I archived until now is attached.
What I tried: https://www.printables.com/model/151815-belt-tensioner-meter-9-mm-petg-prusament
Tuning the belts to 85 Hz with the "Realtiem Analysis"
and also what is in the commision guide.
Is there anything I missed?
Printables.com
Belt tensioner meter 9 mm, PETG Prusament by Locki | Download free ...
For 9 mm belts, print from PETG Prusament like original model | Download free 3D printable STL models
744 Replies
These are the input shapre graphs
same boat as you
curious to see what people say
graphs are similar to urs
1e3 usually means binding.
Check your belt path.
Also you gota lot of noise everywhere.
so e4 and up is what we should aim for?
That or e5, if it's super cleanish.
Checked belts several times but it won't be better.
I have the feeling that the x axis linear rail feels a bit stiff when belts are thightened to the right amount.
I already checkt if it is bent but it seems to be straight.
There are some severe mehanical issues if you have these graphs on the X especially.
X / DC should be "easy" to get cleaner graphs.
If you get this on X as well you have some mehanical stuff as I said.
Recheck, triple check everything
I checked all bearings also the belt paths and the rails.
What else can I do?
You are binding somewhere, so either your rails are at the front/back not the same
Or something is putting imense stress
@Prav Is more a belt tension guy, if he can help.
Is there a guide I can follow?
Since I dissasambled and reassambled and checked alot of these things I may miss the solution I'm searching for.
Now that everything was dissasambled and reassambled again. I have better results but again something seems to be off.
how tight are ur bearing stacks?
@D00M-_ which ones do you mean?
all of them
try loosening them a bit and see what changes
also, have you tried to vibrate the machine using realtime analysis and see what it sounds like?
I will try to loosen them a bit. I tried the realtime analysis yes but I didn't find anything loose or else something off
did you got through the axis?
x, y, x+y, x-y?
what frequency did you tune ur belts to?
just tried y because I assumed that that's the one with issues, x belts to 85,4 Hz and the hybrid y belts to 95,5 Hz
what did u use to meassure?
I tired to find the resonance which creats the peaks
did you do this with realtime? where u have the toolhead in the center and you pluck the belt and see what frequency peak comes up?
also how do ur meassure belt graphs look
loosening the bearing stacks didn't change anything
by loosening did you make then have play or are they still secure? i had weird vibrations because i overtightended them
they are still secure
is the gantery square?
yes
try tunning the y belts at a lower frequncy
Those are the belt graphs
y look better then x
even tho ur input shaper is the other way around
in ur x graph they are not equal tension
Random question (throwing rice at the wall): could unequal belt length cause this?
dono, i tired to get them equal. Cut them in half then messured the ends of the belts coming out of the grabbers
and they are equal
im in the same boat as him
y is always fucked
Hmm, I just finished my toolhead assembly so only have accessories, panels and electronics left to do. Will continue after 14d holiday and will stay engaged here once I can talk with my own belt graphs experience.
The lack of guides reguarding this really sucks
It would be great if in the assembling guide would be a "how to fasten the belts".
There is for the standard one. But nothing there translates to idex
You have
Extreme noise
SOmething is loose.
Either a bolt or something
Anything above 110 I think it something usually loose or vibrating, etc.
so apart from taking it apart a 5th time or using realtime analysis and going through the frequencies. What else would u recommend as a diagnostic method
Best bed is the toolhead, that something is perhaps loose, all wires and stuff should be ziptied and they should not move at all.
Next thing i suggest is checking how tight you actually ar.
Maybe you are too tight on the Y?
Wires are ziptied
When they resonate they slap the extrusion
That is normal
when you change tension do you deconnect the blocks ?
But 125 just screems somehting is not idealy tightened or is loose. Like a bolt or somehting, the rapido as well can be vibrating if its not snug etc.
Wdym, disconnecto the blocks?
used purple locktight on that
On what, the rapido?
the top bots holding the whole asembly
before everytime i would change tension the gantery would skew
so now to avoide that i unscrew them and change
If it skews your belt length is not the samw
If it's all the same you wouldn't have this issue belt length wise
so whats a good way to fix the belt issue?
what i did was:
Cut the belts in half, then count the teeth left out of the grabber
on both sides there are 15 teeth left
also another thing, if the printer is left alone, the belt tenssion changes
one hour ago both peaks where the same amplitude and now they are different
gantry is still square
The amplitude say it's not the same because from the grabber if your gantry isn't perfect you can easily. Miss a teeth
You should remove the belts and count it that way.
they where placed side by side and compared
under tension
and when instaned i clamped the gantry to the front of the printer
so it woudnt move
Y belts are equal to the tooth
And so is x
@VisualTech48 same with mine?
Then put them back at the same tooth and put the machine all the way back. Them tighten the x and dc belts while keeping it flush with the back plates.
Once you've tighten jt enough put the y belts
And then do the same.
Also when your put the the x rail to the back make sure that your toolheads are both in the middle
You can even zip tie them together while your doing this then after you've tighten it remove the zip tie and adjust based on graphs.
i cant visualize this. In what way do you zip tie them
also do the front tensioners have to be equal?
I'll show it when I get to my pri ter.
The machine is imperfect the front tensioners tell you nothing.
Don't focus if they are the same way in.
Graphs will tell you that.
before adding the belts i mean, If one is further in the the other. Would that make one belt longer then the other
?
Without tension you can't tell because you can rack it easily by hand.
ok, i will start getting the belts in the motor mounts and wait for the ziptie trick
Its not really hard to grasp, I've tried to explain it
oh, i thought u ment ziptie the belts somehow
ok will try now
@Anrot might as well do this together. Our graphs where similar and we both did the same troubleshooting before:D
I'm on it
IDEX is difficult, but with patiance you will get there.
@VisualTech48 aight followed all the instructions and now im here
how do i get it equal now without breaking it XD
Don't do y belt tension on idex. For idex for y you look at the is.
It's the same freq but different amplitude. Which means if the belts are the same like you claim some part of the path is longer.
im doing is now
Ie your motor mounts could not be perfect with the extrusion. But the graph is cleaner now
Run is let's see
Would this much deviation cause the longer belt path?
And the other side
I see gaps.
Well your belt tension grapg
Basicly says that one of your belt is longet
But they are at the same tension
It's okey to have that but I feel it's a tad too much gap between them in your case
here is the is
ill loosen the belts and get the motor mounts flush
then ill do it all again
You still have some noise on the lower end of hz now that can be anything really.
But by the looks of it it's basicly the same tension so you just need to clean it up
Look for input shaper on YouTube maybe there could be a bit more info what could it be as well
Tried what you told us. I think I'm will use the printer as a table. No matter what I do it is always a mess.
I don't understand why you folks jsut drop the towel, this is a DIY printer, the idex was known and it is far more difficult to tune.
Have patience, and go from slack
Towards more tense
First make your your X and DC is tight enough
Then go to the Y belts.
So its tense but not too tnese, as if you go overboard by just 1/8 of the screw you can have horrid graphgs.
You are still binding somewhere.
somehow one belt is shorter then another. When the gantry is at the back and both toolheads are in the center, and i tighten the x/dc belt so the gantery is square. If i pluck each belt there is a noticable change in frequency. So my question is, which belt do i shorten and which belt do i make longer?
Pluck test is not the best method.
On the IDEX that is at leeast.
Because no machine is perfect, so if you combine a lot of minor differences in distance, you can have that.
This usually again indicates, difference in belt leght, if its the same hz but different amplitude. Usually.
It should be a bit closer basicly, overlapping would be ideal.
so remove teeth from the right and add to the left?
or just do one side?
The issue stems that Y as well pulls the gantry. You can try in your case, if we look at this graph, to release 1 tooth from the right toolhead, and then tension it again to be the same hz.
It should come far closer.
This was after doing the motor mounts
im a try this
Try it, and the Y graphs indiciate an issue, in your case at least. You managed to nail the same hz, but you have issues with 125+ hz which is something again, saddly loose.
You can easily see how Y effects it, if you pull one more of the y and you will see some changes on X as well.
Find the cause of this, it will help as well.
could the loose part be anywhere on the printer or just the motion side?
Could be even a fan 😄
Its that sensitive.
Doesn't mean it will affect your prints though but it can.
ill start taking parts off then :))
Just tighten stuff, see what could be loose.
I had a t nut that didn't grab correctly on my sides
And it showed on the grahp
this might be something to look at
im a redo the rails then
just to be sure
You'd be suprized how many stuff can resonante. It again doesn't mean 100% it will affect your prints.
That is why you should not go for perfection but yeah Y is a mess.
When Y is somewhat decent you run an acceleration test, and a VFA test.
I think someone has a 3.1 idex and has amazing speeds and such
With not ideal graphs seemingly.
tightened everything that i could
back to the previous step
havent touched the belts
This is actually good.
You have it Criss Corss
Now you do one belt or the other, and it should "stabilize"
how many teeth should i aim for
ball park it
I'm not sure 100% but basicly if you tighten your right Y, your Left (X) should tighen more.
Which should bring you up to speed, now with Y belts.
Even the 1/8 can cause your graphs to be wobbly,
So do it bit, remember what you moved and then retest.
my alen keys have about 1/10 play :))
going to be interesting
did 1/8 turn on y right and this is the result. X left went up. X right also went up
y right went down and so did y left
im a do anoter 1/8 and do a z-tilt after and see whats up
that 2nd peak is coming back on y
Try to if you enagage left more to decrese right etc.
What he means when he says binding is that somewhere a pully/idler is rubbing or a pully/ idler is broken. Are you using the stock ones or the heavy duty? To check you need to spin them freely with ur hand and see if u feel resistance or its staggering
I use the Stock ones, all a Spinning freely
3D Printers & a Whiteboard
YouTube
How to Read and Analyze Input Shaper Graphs Generated by Klipper
This video is supposed to be a brief overview on what the input shaper graphs can tell us. It is the first video of a series of videos which will give a more in depth view on the kinematic system and input shaping in Klipper.
As always: feel free to jump to those parts, that help you with your problems:
00:00 Intro
00:57 What we can learn from...
something has to be rubbing then
find the problem and u will have better graphs
@Anrot I got the same/ a similar problem in the very beginning:
And I also double and triple checked everything. In the end I just used trial and error, just adjusting belt tensions.
Now, just tightening the X-belts I got from the above graphs to this:
Its far from perfect, but shows very clearly, that just one (exactly!) revolution with the screwdriver to tighten the X-belts can sometimes make those huge spikes disappear.
I will try to start over again. Maybe i dissasembly the Idex belts and start with the core xy
im here now XD
1/8 turns at a time
I suspect that those belts rub against the extrusion in the very back when they are to loose
this staggered line is very similar on both of ours
cant wait for one of us to share what causes it:))
regarding the misaligned x-peaks; Should I try to get both to the 50-75 Hz range or how did you proceed?
could be a belt lenght issue
I thought so too... Well I think I will try every possible X-adjustment first and then doing Y and we'll see whether I have to disassemble.
same boat as u
The 3.1 was also a process... Took seemingly way longer to get properly assembled but without the idex tuning was pretty fast
3.1 compared to this was a cake walk. Had that calibrated in one afternoon
im a week deep in this one now
I assembled this one in about 28 hours and only had minor difficulties, biggest one was searching for the heavy duty idler pulleys I bought and haven't found till this day 😭
input shaper update. I have both y's on EI
better then 2hump_EI i was getting before
what do I do in such a case where one peak "disappears"?
Here the corresponding shaper graphs, the T1 graphs look horrendeous
I had this happen, means you went to far loosen both sides and start again
any idea what you did to smooth the 45 peak?
also the 120hz thing can be the umbilical. Might want to tie those together the 40% of the way from the back panel
i havent had time to play with it this weekend
i'm here now again I don't understand why now Y seems ok but x is catastropic
I think ur x is too tight
Tune it to 60hz
Around that range
with 60 Hz it is like this
Looks better tbh
thx for the suggestion of 60 Hz this is now the best I archived
Now the y is the issue that is problem 😂
Im still struggling this that one also
@Portolasas has better y then us
Dude managed mzv
😭
This thread will get more populated as more people get the idex and run into the same hurdles 😂
Yes a bit more instruction in this topic would be great
any idea how to move on?
Damn son
Sexy
And is?
not so sexy
I get the same peak at 50 and 125
Thats a lot of vibration on y
U need to find the cause of that
Im also trying to find it
@VisualTech48 any guidance from here?
@Anrot Have you tried to ziptie the two umbilicals half way together
?
It helped a bit with the 125hz vibration for me
No they are not the ziptied toghether but the filament pipe(?) is ziptied to it
Try ziptieing them together half way through
Also
Do u have filament in ur extruders?
And also, do u have the oss?
yes filament is in. Whats oss?
Filament sensors for orbiter
ah no not jet
Interesting, i have them and was wondering if they where part of the vibration
U just saved me disassembling them 😂
😅
Our graphs are very similar
Actually all 3 of ours
Same peaks
Dose you electronics panel vibrate?
a bit but would say this seems to be normal
Stick some rubber or foam in it to dampen it
See if it helps
It would be great to have a list where parts of the printer and Hz are corresponding. For example the 50 Hz may be this or that.
We are the guinea pigs 😂
Y and X are both very much not independent, I have tried so much, I may be able to share later, but I am currently not at home
Should I try to bring the X and Y resonance together?
Try it and see what happens
Im at a christening so tmr ill get back on it
Sorry to say but since I invested about 20h in tuning belts and nothing really good came out I feel like Ratrig doesn't really care about us to get this printer working.
To be honest until now I don't know how exactly I should start to tune them.
My printer now is super slow (benchy 1h) and still the quality is not good.
I understand it takes time but since we don't know what to do we are just guessing around.
I'm really sorry for you. I think the only thing that RatRig is really doing wrong is that they market the product a little bit wrong. It is simply not the case that everyone canbulit such a machine especially with the many new members to 3d printing. I started in 2019 and have rebuilt another printer to suit my own needs. I also built a V-core 3 and then upgraded it to a 3.1. Buying the 4 I very much knew which struggles I would have to endure and that there is no "out-of-the-box-experience".
You need some mechanical, electrical and OS-experience to really be able to fix issues in an efficient manner and can feel very easily lost if you don't. I have an engineering background and thereby also some foundation which I can rely on. So of course some things might seem like common sense to me but might not to somebody else. And knowing very well that I have already struggled quite a bit with my setup I can understand your frustration.
Two things to always keep in mind: So many people bought the 500 without needing it. I have a small business and I am looking into increasing my capabilities. A bigger printer isn't better; especially speed-wise. More moving mass means less speed, bigger tolerances (many that add up). And even more: A printer with two toolheads introduces more sources of resonance, even more mass and ESPECIALLY the two extra belts multiply the possible tightening scenarios by 4. The don't add to the other two, but are multiplating.
So now some general findings of my own; keep in mind this is no scientific study; I just test and assume some fundamental findings. They might be wrong.
1. for X you want to have ZV or MZV and one high peak. Only one toolhead is moving from left to right, so ideally only the resonance frequency of the print head should ideally be visibale. In my case they don't perfectly align, which is okay since they have a different weight and thereby may also have a different frequency.
2. As also mentioned in the comissioning guide, don't focus to much on the belt tension graphs. Since X and Y belts both assert force on X-axis, they are not independent. In my tests I would suggest to start with very low tensions and slowly increase them. First, create the peaks like above for X by tightening those belts, leave Y alone. For me this seems basic knowledge but ALWAYS watch the 1e4, 1e5, etc. It seems like many people don't understand that this is the scale of the axis. So e.g. 1e4 means take the number on the axis and multiply by 10^4. Of course, if your dominant peak increases in amplitude the "side" peaks seem smaller even though quite often they stay the same.
3. Focus on the shaper graphs. What you want to achieve is acceleration and not perfectly aligned belt tensions. From what I noticed, in my case, the gantry stayed square.
4. One eighth of a revolution can often make quite the difference. Many people said that and its true. Move slowly and patiently. Remember, that at least for the Y-belts, tightening the right side a bit is more or less the same as un-tightening the left side a bit. This is less the case for X, since you have two carriages which are not connected but still here you have some dependencies which may seem huge.
5. For The Y peaks I aimed for at least 5000 mm/s^2 accelaration and got after many rounds of fine adjusting these graphs:
damn, those look fine
what ballpark frequency did you tune those to?
also, what tips did you learn along the way for tuning y?
They ain't perfectly pretty, but after the testing I have done its totally okay to have two peaks since it seems like the other carriage at the end of the axis always introduces its own frequency. The 100HZ+ range of frequencies are unavoidable. In many graphs they are just seemingly very small pecause the peak is at 1e6. Tightening together part of the wire looms and the PTFE tubes helped a lot with those frequencies.
Thanks @Portolasas its also not my first printer to build but this hybrid system is in my opinion way more diffucult than standard corxy.
I will try to handle me through your guid there.
6. For tightening I would suggest the following method: Start loose - tighten X with belt tension graphs so that they are as best aligned as possible - Generate shaper graphs and slowly tighten Y at both side simultaneously - When you get better results switch to X and slowly adjust one side at a time - Then back to Y.
Aim for an accelarion you want to reach and be happy when you get there. Don't want more and more. NEVER adjust X and Y at the same time, this introduces so many things you can't foresee. I always did a M84 followed by a homing after tightening, because by tightening the belts you may introduce a gantry twist and thereby "wrong shaper graphs which aren't the same after a restart.
Also, there are definetly local maxima of accelaration. So if, for example, you tighten X and the results get worse and you loosen X afterwards and they also get worse you might be at such a local maxima. I suc a case I always switched to the other axis so in this example to Y and continued there.
Here are my tension graphs:
You can clearly see the two Y-peaks and the more or less one x-peak. As mentioned, don't focus on the 100+Hz Y frequencies to much. An exception is if they get to similar amplitude as the main peaks. Then you have a twist, are to tight or to loose.
And even though I got to MZV for the Y-axes and I would say that this is a generally good indication of a good tune, EI or Two-Hump EI or sometimes Three-Hump EI, was what I had most of the time. You should watch a general input shaper explanation beforehand to understand what those regression methods mean and where they differ. Accelleration is, of course, important but so are little vibration and smoothing. So keep that in mind.
So I hope that helps you guys a bit and everyone that comes after. In total I needed about 30 measurements before I got this results. But ideally you should need less, since I played around quite a bit to get a better understanding of the interactions of the behaviors of the printer.
In the beginning you can also make bigger adjustments e.g. quarter (or sometimes half revolutions), until you get in the range where the graphs look good. But I suggest you move slow so you don't miss the turn 😉
@VisualTech48 @Helge Keck Feel free to check the info i have given, maybe some conclusions where utterly wrong, so I can clarify them. Maybe we can also put the thread in the Idex channel for better visibility - if it helps of course.
This is my actual effort
i tried to bring x and y peak together but I since one will get to loose and the other to stiff it seems not to be possible
@Anrot You might have other issue if your graphgs are as wild as I see this.
You are all over the palce saddly, my best suggestion would to really make sure everything is TIGHT, and by tight i Dont mean the belts I mean the actually printer.
I didn't have this extreme noise I think even with my 3.1.
Toolhead has to be top notch
Zipeties, not too much strain for the umbilical
Making sure its all snug, and no bolt is vibratiing on the toolhead.
Making sure that the EBB is really mounted firmly.
That your path of the Y is correct, and that the belts don't dance
Y belts are the same lenght
That the Y joiner is tight enough and that the x gantry is not racking.
Thx @VisualTech48, but I tried all those tips already and cant find anything loose. I tried the built in analysis tool to find the source of the resonaces but again no finding. I'm out of Ideas.
Did you check if you are racking?
y moves also freely
take pics
of all the joints
Moving freely, but are the distances from thje motor plates the same left and right?
yes they are the same also the frame is square and the rails a paralell
@Portolasas where your belts equal or did you have to adjust by a tooth or two?
@VisualTech48 hi, seeing as you machine is dialed in. Could we see all your graphs? for reference purposes, just to see what we should aim for
@D00M-_ What I had 1-2 month ago:
But I change my machine a lot
I think this was a test with the Dual Rail if I'm not mistaken
Basicly you want clean peaks,
But even my graphs are not the cleanest.
But you should not really go for the cleanest graph but rather best print quality.
The idex is complicated really it is, you can, and should always when you get okey graphs actually run the thing, and run perhap a Input Shaper test print.
Too see if it actually causes issues.
good stuff thank you.
Is this a 500?
400
The lower HZ is due to again my heavy gantry at the time.
I run around 55 if I'm not mistaken
alright, more work to be done then 😄
Yeah saddly idex is complicated, and a far higher curve to do proper. You'll get there with patiance.
Ask Helge how much time I spent on mine at first.
ive followed ur comment stream so i know it took months 😛
@Anrot do u have a top panel on you machines?
not yet, just the backplate
add a top to it
it compresses the loom and reduces some of the vibrations
without top and with top
no change to the belts
i have to add that my top dosent use magnets but is bolted on
Re run it a few times see whats what, but again, when you get okey graphs
Run them actually.
With a test if need be
And see if its causing any troubles.
Well it is an uphill battle saddly. Again, change someting and then try again. Your 75+ basicly means somethingt again on the toolhead or the umbiiclal etc could be loose.
i sent the wrong graph
that was without top
this is with
im going to try to tune the peak lower a bit
be at 50
If you are on 400 @D00M-_ default I think you can get 55 easily. Let me check.
im on 500
I see, well these were among my "first" stock IDEX graphs:
what upgrades did you do?
Nothing that is needed, different hotend (Rapido ACE), Titanium Gantry, 5160s, custom top electronics bay, and custom Y belt holder.
I'm getting closer, very slowly but closer.
I struggle to bring x and y resonacne toghether.
Has anyone played with the belt lenght to change the frequency?
Normally I have to make Y longer to lower the frequency, maybe I shift it for a few tooths.
did u but the top on?
No, I dissasembled parts of the printers again and tuned belts again. Top is not attached yet.
Yours seem to look way better what die you do?
added the top on, hotglued some wiggely connectors on the toolheads, and started tunning from very loose belts
Strange thing is no matter what i try those two peaks won't come toghether
What did you do to get it smoothed out?
I did what you told me 😅
dude, 8000 on y is great
take the win
go drink a beer
over night my graphs broke
@VisualTech48 any idea what this indicates?
Well belts streach initially.
You basicly gotta brake down the belts a bit
And the temeprature affects it as well keep in mind
uff
@VisualTech48 i need some adivce. Ive hit a roadblock. X is good but my y is having issues. nothing i do gets the right belt to come up
tried everything but i dont understand why its not moving
ive tighted 1/8 at a time and got a a full revolution and its the same graph
and x stays racked and pretty
Don't look at this.
The Y belt graph is not really that important.
You want the IS graphs
This is important,
then i got them to align and both peaks where sexy i got good is
but noted
im running now to see whats up
X is important that the belt graphs match
But you want it not racking and if that is the case, run a IS graph
I'm guessing this is a 300 or 400mm build. I had awesome graphs with the Hybrid on my 500. IDEX is giving me a fit
One thing that helped me tune the Hybrid was the excite axes feature in Shake-tune. You set the frequecy to where your problem is and you usally can hear it. I would then touch each belt to see wich was giving me problems. The realtime analyst in Rat OS pulses a little differenty. I can't hear it as well but sometimes I can see which belt is vibrating. Still wrapping my head around IDEX because it's not really a core xy anymore. Just x t0 and x t1 with a cartesian Y
he has a 400
anrot, portolasas and i have a 500
hybrid knowledge dosnt translate
I think this might have been mentioned but for me as soon as I put the lid on my problems went away. I think the way the umbilical cords are joined in the back they amplify one another. On the 500 the cords are pushed down by the lid dampening them. My graphs looked like your all's and I was ready to give up for the day when I did one last test with the lids. This is just my first day messing with it. I was mentioning the hybrid because it was tricky and the same techniques of listening to and watching the belts at the right frequency apply. At least on mine
Im having a heck of a time getting a good graph/ above 4k on y. Are you guys running 500s? If so mind sharing your toolhead to joiner X and tensioner to y block frequencies? Ive had the toolheads both apart and the joiners making sure everything was tight and square and still struggling
85hz Toolhead to Joiner, 95hz tensioner to hybrid y block
Yeah we have 500s
Your y is too tight
dont use frequencies for this. They will confuse you
use this method when tightening - https://discord.com/channels/582187371529764864/1296131270920900720/1296847960939958353
if u need a starting point for belt tension
Printables.com
Belt Tension Gauge by Tom Anderson (The Real NEO) | Download free S...
Here is a belt Tension gauge for 5 mm and 6mm wide belts.
I have Included the Fusion360 files for adjustments. | Download free 3D printable STL models
start at low
and work your way up
use the belt tension graph only for x
get those to match
then go do y with IS
My problem was that those freqencies are too tight on my machine. I have also a 500
this is a different one
starts really low
i also used the one u posted at the begining and it was so conffusing
no i mean 85 Hz and 95Hz
yea
tunning to the 2nd marker on y gave me MZV right from the start on Y
ah good to know. It would be great if Ratrig would malke such a tool for us poor mortal souls to have a good starting point
Hello everybody 😁 I have the same problem
Updated to hybrid and idex and now it looks like this
too tight
all of it is too tight
read the whole thread from the top
Oh okay hmm how much hz do you recommend (have also a 500) ?
I set it up on 85 and the hybrid on 95
(Used a trummeter like this https://amzn.eu/d/bApebVd)
dont use that
its irrelevant here
follow from here
https://discord.com/channels/582187371529764864/1296131270920900720/1300347697185951826
Ah okay but why ? I thought the belts must have a specific Tension
two toolheads vs one
everything here is completly diffierent then hybrid/normal
Ah okay it’s my first Idex don’t know this is a difference
But this is only for 6mm
Make this a difference?
look in the files
there is a 9
I only see 6 and 5 sorry if I am dumb 😂 but can’t see a 9mm version
no, im dumb
put the wrong linkl
Printables.com
Belt Tension Gauge (source file included) by Chip | Download free S...
2GT belt Tension Meter… | Download free 3D printable STL models
Ah okay haha thank you will print it now
start at the second tick from the bottom
then look at the video also and follow that when tightening
https://discord.com/channels/582187371529764864/1296131270920900720/1296847960939958353
Okay where do I have to put this on ? And where should the head be
dosnt matter
aim for the middle
its only to get u started
after you get the relativly tensioned, stop using it and focus on the graphs
belt tension for x
and is for y
dont look at belt tension for y or u will be chasing ghosts
this will take hours so get ready to go nuts
and if u finish and ur happy but u bump the gantry in the back or front it will screw up the tension and u have to do it again
Very nice sounds like fun 😂🤮
tunning idex is like being 16 and trying to find the g spot XD
Hahaha Shit 😂
Without doing anything I am in the middle so I have to go down or ?
second tick
start there
Ah 😂 yes
Forgot I have hybrid
This is Moore low
the higher u go in tensions the more ur graphs look like they have ADD
Okay good to know 😁
do them all like that
then do x tension graph
and then adjust to get them equal
They are all like this
r u belts equal?
to the tooth?
Puh don’t know for shure
if they are not
u will have a bad day
I thought only the tension is important
😂
think about this
Okay okay 😂
and even then if they are equal, u still might need to play with letting one tooth go or pulling on
best way is to messure teeth left out of the extruders
for y u need to compare them
You mean here ?
other side
This one
yes
count the teeth
make sure they are equal
Okay should be equal
when u cut y, where they equal?
Yes
Make 1 tooth a difference?
yes
especially on x
I don’t know if the belts are 100% same length on x
Cut it 8 weeks ago
if i where u id check
or u will be chasing ghosts
So loosen the belts take it off and look at it
Or 😥
take them off
tape them on the floor
and see if they are equal
Okay
then do the tooth messuring thing for x and for y
also tie ur ubilicals together half way to the toolheads starting from the back
tie the ptfe tube also
What do you mean ?
This is how I have it now
tie them together about half way to the toolheads
make sure they can still move
also when doing any sort of test, put the lid on
Had 3 tooth Moore on one belt
make them equal
Did it
Now back in
same for y too
So after doing this for all belts
And the inputshaper graphs are generated right now
dont do y tensions graph\
I only click on the generate belt graphs
this looks like its either too tight or something is loose
click the arrow and select just x
Ah nice don’t saw this till now
also do 1/4 on both x
and go tension graph again
there is no point in doing IS if ur x is not equal
focus just on that
What do you mean
Okay
turn 1/4 turn on both x
tighten them
Ah okay
i never saw such flat blue line O_O
blue line is too tight
u should be doing 1/8 turns at a time
then u will see the line either go up or down
there is a threshold tightness where it just disapears
and looks like this
I tried a couple of thightness levels from very low to thight and literly nothing changed :/ But i can try again a far less tighness
do 1/4 back
on blue
then u reach the maximum u will know, then just take off the yellow
all ur asjustment should be 1/8 turns at a time
thanks, i try it
Good morning @D00M-_
No matter what I do if I loosen or thighten the belts I don’t get it really better
I already checked the screws and everything twice
where is the yellow belt?
I only did the t1 head because the t0 head looks at first okay or „better“
Give me a second will make both heads
do 1/8 turn losening on the blue line
also, have you done realtime analysis ?
No not now
vibrate the printer and see if anything is loose?
How do you mean ?
enter real time anaysis
go and start it
and then go to the other tab and choose frequency and mode
looks too tight
or something is loose
Where is frequency ? Don’t find it at the real time
This one
tools
And now ?
go and start it
Yes
But what should I do it with this now
i would show u pictures but mine is dead =)) dosnt want to open
ill type
what u want to do is have t0 in the middle
start the real time anaylsis
then go to tools
select x
and move the slider slowly
up
like 5 hz ever 5 seconds
and then listen to the printer
and hear if anything is ratteling
if there is ratteling, find it with ur finger. Touch parts of it until it stops
then do this again by selecting y
and the x+y
and then x-y
then to it all again with t1
have fun=))
Ah okay thank you
Now I tested and don’t find any loose things
Then I loosen the belts to the minimum of the scale (from your print file yesterday) and this came out
nice
Then thighten a Little Bit more and This
Is this good ?
go back to this
then untighten yellow by 1/8 turn
Okay
So this is what I got now
What is your opinion?
And this is the is
do more tunning
also y is too tight
Is this now good ?
get the peaks to be the same height
And why do we have only one Rash I thought we need two
rash?
Peeks
Or what is the name for
idex needs both to be equal
the fact that each toolhead is independant needs this
if they are not equal
then u do vaoc there will be error
s
Ah okay so if I have one toolhead I need two and with Idex I need one or ?
For example this is what I need for one head
thats when u have two belts for one head
here u have one belt one head
Ahhh
u should get only one peak
Okay
Thank you
and they have to be perfectly overlaped
1/2% dif max
Okay 👍
until u have that done, there is no point in doing IS for y
also, after every motification to tension
m84
then home
you should also check gantry squareness by moving toolheads to center and all the way back
Ah okay this is what I don’t do
What does m84
turns off steppers
Ah okay
Without the belts it was perfect
Will check if the graph looks good
is it not perfect now?
Don’t looked again since then
look now
no point in moving forward if its not square
It’s not 100% perfect but if I loose the belts then it is
not good then
do this https://discord.com/channels/582187371529764864/1296131270920900720/1296847960939958353
wow, your belts are fucked
What do you mean
hes fucking with you
And what is the problem here is?
dont you see that?
they are broken
Where ?
i dont see it either, are you refering to the color
take a close up of the blocks
ohhh, its the y belt block, LMAO
Yes 😁
@03Julian04 loosen all ur belts. Do the tensioner trick on just one of the x belts and then get the gantery square by tighening the opposite belt. As you tighten it the tension in the belt with the tension meter will decrease.
dont do y until u have x square
follow the video for positioning the toolheads
after u tighen a bit move the gantery back and forth the get the belts to stabilize
do this until u get the joiners to stay flush with the motor mounts
then do y belts to minimum tension
Okay also without the belts it is not aligned
then u have to get it square
u tightented to much and got it out of square
loosen the joiners and get it perfect
Yes
Will do it
@Cruz for idex comisioning guide, this is the best place to get inspired on steps:D
What do you think do I have to do if the blue is too low ? Thighten or loosen the belt or could it be both ?
have you reached the threshold of x?
if u do another 1/8 turn tight on blue
dose it go up or down
?
Yes bevor i thoghten the belts it was perfectly aligned on the back
not what i asked
Okay what do you ask for ?
.
.
If I thighten the left one 1/4
This came out but the problem is that if I put the x back then the left side is too far away so normally the right side have to be thighter
What do you think
i think you should have 2 peaks and not jsut one
there is something wrong
most likely binding belts somewhere
On idex too ?
you cant fix that with belt tension
ohh this is IDEX
Yes
then the belt tension graph is useless anyway
it only tells you if you have vibrations or not
Even for x?
Okay then what should i look at
the belt tension grpah helps you to equalize the corexy belts
How much tension ?
more improtant is the input shaper graph
And at what do I have to look there ?
but your orange line tells you that you suffer from some vibraitons
its minor though
you need to make sure that your tension still provides a square gantry
this is key
also, the y belts affect this graph as well
thats why input shaper is more improtant for a idex
And how much tension
if you ahve too much tension on the idex your input shaper grpahs are fucked
Without equal tension on x, all my is graphs where shit
As soon as i had equal x i had mzv on is for x
Then it was easy to do y
this isnt necessarily the tensionm these graphs do not tell you anything about the needed tension, these belts are not connected to the same hotend
Tried this and vaoc was shit. When i fixed it it worked
My way worked for me
of course you need similar tension on both toolheads, i jsut say this graph doesnt necessarily tells you the right tension
input shapoer graphs are more reliable for idex
What was your process for getting belts tuned well? I'm ashamed to admit this but I've got 12+ hours tweaking and running graphs trying to get a good result. My best shaper was 8k x and 4k y. I wrote down the tensions I was at and tweaked more trying to get better thinking I could readjust to those tensions and get that result back if needed. Now I can't even get back there
make sure all belts have the exact same length, make sure the are identical inserted in all belt blocks on y and the toolheads, make sure the front belt tensioner are equal and then make sure the gantry is square
then tune T0 and then T1 then Y
make small adjustments to tune all of them
there is a relationship between Y and X/DC, if there are disharmonies you get shitty grpahs
takea about 15 mintues to get ok input shaper graphs
assuming you do not suffer from vrbations
Guess I'm pulling belts and counting teeth - everything is square and I've had tool head, joiners, and stacks apart to rebuild and check
I assumed tensioners could make up for any length difference
jsut for reference this is the goal for y for example
https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/878966049616297984/1174868828111519784/idex_is.png?ex=6722269c&is=6720d51c&hm=317a173fa53cdc6e26039206acbbd59fc439a06228de76f4a6ac8c5283a1df7a&=&format=webp&quality=lossless
what oyu see here is a completely vibration free graph for a idex
Wow 11600 acc
thats an old graph from my VC3.1 IDEX
with the VC4 300 you can reach about 15k if its perfectly tuned
but mainstream 10k is the goal
And the 500
i have no experience with a 500 IDEX
idk
but i assume you should be able to get 5 or 6 k
Okay I will see where I get
I am doing right now the is will see where I am
i short, get rid of any vibration, make sure y and x/dx belts are harmonized
So do you think this is good for x
try it
What can the problem be if y is rubbish ?
Like this
make small adjsutments on y, repeat is grpah, and repeat repeat repeat
Can it only be the belts from the hybrid ?
Or can it also be the belts from the heads ?
Looks too tight
Once u finish with x, go do y, then come back to x as changes on y might impact x
Now I think I got it
its a start
now do one with copy and mirror mode and you will see some magic
How do I do this ?
1. home printer
2. enable copy mode
4. run input shaper
Ah okay
Can I also use copy mode like this ? Or do I have to activate it in the slicer too ?
thats how you do it
the slicer doesnt care about it
So I slice one object and then activate copy mode and the printer copy it ?
And where do I have to place the model on the plate ?
you jsut print as usual but you enable copy mode before
Do I have to think the middle
the printer or the slcier do nto really copy the object
the printer doesnt even know that you use copy mode
you place a object i the middle of the plate and print
Ah okay and how big can it be ? 250mm wide ?
copy mode half the build plate, mirror mode less
Okay thank you
but i HIGHLY recommend to not use copy or mirror mode yet
you should print first successfully soem prints at least
if everything works reliable then you can do that
@Helge Keck on his y1 graph, ive seen the exact same double peak on a lot of graphs including my own. What causes this? Any idea
disharmonic x and y belt
there are 3 indivudual belts that need to work together
if they dont you get these graphs
so u still need more tunning then to get it right
dose printer size make it harder?
not really
looking forward when yall gonna add belt tennsion sensors and automate all this
Adaptive Belt Tensioning:D
keep dreaming, do something for your money
This is with copy mode enabled
without dreamers there would be nothing cool on this earth:D And i do, i make concrete crap and lamps:P
u have a bit of vibration in ur umbilical
is it resonating against the top?
No this was with no top on it
add it
will improve the graphs
Okay will test this later
@D00M-_ @Helge Keck how is this possible
I only change the place of the printer
my guess is you twisted the frame and it applied pressure on the belts
or your floor is uneaven and its twisting the frame
Oh men this thing is making me crazy
@D00M-_ Which value do I write in the config ? The lowest of every one or do I write every value ?
yeah the lowest
for single each value
for copy and mirror the lowest
Can you send a foto of your config so I know how to write it
im not home atm
there is a section in printer.cfg
at the top in the macro section
where you fill in the blanks
Here ?
no, for a idex remove that section
add thsi instead
Ah Okay thank you
hello again and good morning (if the timezone fits;). I have a issue, and im a little bit confused: Wether i measure X or Y Axsis, every time the PSD is far lower on the left side (100 Times lower, i.e. 60.000 instead of 2.000.000) i tried every tension from extremly low to like an iron rod. In the best case i reached 80.000.
The right side is a poc to adjust for x and y axis
pics or it didnt happen 🙂
right and left x-tension is almost the same and gantry perfectly aligned
all idler pulleys controlled, belt always in the middle of pulleys
hand-movement feels very smooth
maybe tool-board damaged ?
Dont look at Y tensions grahps
But your X is fucked 😄
What is the size of the printer?
You could overtensioned it.
Thus lkoosing one of the amplitudes.
In you rcase the T0 toolhead
less is more @XHeli
if its a 500 then ur way over tensioned
Yes I can agree haha it looks like waaay too lose but that was perfect
I tested all beetween so looose, that the belt is wobbeling and so tight that the belt is like an iron rod, no point in the way of the two point leads to more then 80.000 (i did approx 40 Steps from loose to tight). On T1 all no problem, just a T0 issue (on X and Y axis the same missbehavior)
Its a 400 machine
I'm quite a noob with resonances, especially with this idex setup. What would be the best way to tackle a graph looking like this? I see some vibrations after the main peak? Is there any way to "easily" fine the cause of them?
with a bit more tensioning I got it to mvz at least - but I'm unsure if I should be looking for the vibrations or not
Give it a bit more tenssion
Aim for above 6k acel
above 6k for mzv - switching to zv is good or bad?
ZV isnt good for our printers
got it - then I went too far xD
mzv across the board
aim for above 6k
ur at 41hz now in the graph
go around from 44 and up
and see where it looks good
1/8 turn at a time
right now im back at mzv with 44.2 hz but only 5.8k accel, ill make smaller turns from now lets see
Hello if you guys are here I have a question too
I don’t get mzv on my toolhead 0 on y
It is the same hz measured on the belt like on the t1 y belt but t1 is mzv and t0 is Ei
too tight
I have 14hz on it
Where exactly do you see if it's too tight or too lose? just because of the frequency of the main spike?
but I'm a bit jealous about your upper frequencies
Yes what can this cause ?
yours look fine, I have some spikes on them:
This is with extreeemly loosen belts
i look at the peak and where it is relative to the graph
these are mine
you have a 500 too right?
yes
I think I have to tackle at least the spike on 80 hz on t1
could be some wires or bolt that is loose
It is very very low but same result
go lower
see what happenes
Yes i test it but till now nothing changed
are u square?
Yes
if you re loosening it, it should move left
try some more
What do you mean ?
The graph ?
This is now
go even more
Then the belt is hanging off
Then it is soo loose that I can’t even measure my hz with my trummeter
At what point do you have your belts tighten ? (On the belt tension gauge)
they are not equal
each has its own tension
i abandonded the tension graph and the tension meter
and just used is
yeah same here - i didn't get them to match at all and read that it doesn't even mean they are at the same tension so input shaper it is
how can my T1 y graph be that shitty when T0 y is "fine"?
try a bit more tension
This is with more tighten belt why or what is the reason for the 125 hz do you know possible things ?
Thats the umbilical
Is it possible that the other belts are false and this is shown only on this belt ?
I get on every other belt mzv
But can it be possible that if I thighten all belts that maybe the one also get mzv
Or how can I improve ?
This is now
With very loosen belts
@chicken hello again 😁 I saw you helped another guy with the belts or is maybe you have an idea what I can do ?
Has anyone an idea what could cause a very small x belt movement on the right idex belt when moving the Y axis (even without belts) It's only a very small movement but I can't find the cause of it
Julian I have not done idex yet so have no idea what to even look for yet. I have been traveling a lot for work and just got most of the parts I needed to do idex. Waiting on some replacement rapido parts as I broke my existing hot end in a crash with a wrapped print. Hopefully have time Thanksgiving week to do the upgrades I have planned and then install idex.
Ah okay thanks for the answer 😊
Do you know why the x is so much lower ? (On t1 y)
X IS is on t1 and t0 MZV
finally getting somewhere
No matter what I do - ive restarted the y tensioning like 5 times - the graphs won't get better, sometimes I get mvz but only with like 3.5k acceleration - any ideas?
How strong is it thightened ?
it doesn't look too different - very loose to very tight the graph is as ugly as this
This is way more tightened but still not looking good
How strong is it thightened ?
On y is less more
I have mine very very loose
I mean - I can start again while the one side (not the one fixated in the block) is hanging through - right now I was testing my theory "more is more" :KEKW:
My "loose" was too tight - thank you very much now I can start tuning them correctly
Nice
And another thing is after I had mvz on every belt and ever Modus, 2 hours later it was Ei on two belts again so I think we have to checkt it multiple times with some time between to make sure its perfect
Oh thanks for the info - will do - i will try to get them as wanted today and will recheck tomorrow morning
Give me feedback if only my machine is dumb or it is normal 😂
I hope for you it's "normal" :KEKW:
Haha yes I hope too but in physics it makes sense that after a time the belt loosen a little bit or goes in his shape and then we have to recheck 🤷🏽♂️
yeah would make sense - i've never seen such loose y belts to be honest - no wonder I never tried them that loose
@03Julian04 sorry for tagging you - but what's the procedure if one toolhead looks bad while the other is "okay" it's not like the x axis where one belt correlates to one toolhead i guess?
and btw: have you ever figured out where your peak at 125hz came from? seeing a similar peak here
No don’t find it
Only change a little bit on the other if you do too much you also have to correct the other one
easier said then done - I'm struggling with inconsistent y graphs - running IS two times results in 4 different graphs
Exactly my problem
okay that sucks xD
I have done everything perfect 1 hour later 2 belts are for the rubbish
2 hours later? i get different graphs if i run the is again without a pause at all
Oh yes extremely 😂 Slowly I believe that this is a never ending story
Okay then… after change the belts do you put the x axis back and forth multiple times ?
but others have done it already so there must be a way xD
Or do you run is directly after change
Hahaha or they don’t measure twice if its okay 😂
yes - but right now no - If i don't do anything I expect the same graph no matter how much I run the is - I even went to a different room just to be sure :KEKW:
I had the same problem maybe we have to move it Moore before start a new is
but i'm running a marathon with it already :cryrunning:
Hmm do you tightened the little mini screw at the belt tensioner
yes everytime
this printer is lucky that it doesn't fit through my balcony door, otherwise it would have seen the garden by now :KEKW:
Ohhh yes 😂😂
I thought this multiple times 😂
right now i'm completely ignoring T1 - i'm focusing on T0 and see how the graph changes if I do different things - maybe I then understand the issue better
Okay let me know if you understand anything 😂
will do xD
I was looking forward to getting my IDEX-kit, now I'm experiencing something new..... Pre-PTSD
Pre-PTSD ?
Pre traumatic stress disorder ?😂😂😂😂
Yeah, with the level of complexity this seems to have, I'm now dreading getting this thing calibrated
the y belts are just magic
No worries you are absolutely right
This is a shot haha
I don’t know how often I thinking off to go back to hybrid 😂
If it is working I love it
But till then you will need muuuuuch beer or something to smoke 😂
Sounds like a hoot... I thought this machine would be a fun challenging exercise, now I realize I'm severely under qualified for this.
Ah it’s learning by doing so nobody is under qualified if you really wants this 😁
why am i feeling under qualified tho? I'm sitting here for 12 hours now trying to get the y belts to mvz :KEKW:
Ah that is nothing I tried it now for one week 😂
oh fuck me
😂
... and here i am, stuck in commissioning since sunday and not even close to doing belttensioning... :kekw:
i've read the whole saga... ohhh boy
Haha I wish you much fun
well you'll see me in #imverysmart again then... should have made a picture of the bs i did yesterday.
but i guess before i do anything else, including further beacon calibration and VAOC i better get my belts sorted.
At the moment it looks good
man - want to trade printers?
Have you printed the belt tensioner ?
Sorry tension gauge
No - maybe I should
Yes this helps very much to set both belts at the same tension
let me dust off my ender 5 plus really quick :KEKW:
😁👍
Mirror looks good too I hope it will stay like this
it wount XD
😂😂😂🤮🤮🤮
after about a month of printing and heat cycles
it will change and u have to do it again
Every month again ?
Nice will love this ….
Really not 😂
do you mind sending a pic of the usage of the tension gauge you just sent? I'm curious how loose your loose really is :KEKW:
nope, just until they find balance
Anyone an idea where this second spike can come from?
Okay, that’s a bright spot 🥲😄
No sorry
are all your wires secure?
any loose connectors?
with all wires you mean the ones on the toolhead or everything including the electrical box?
toolhead
yeah you might be on to something - i'm currently looking for a "rattling" on the toolhead on about 55hz, if i put my finger on it it's gone, so somethings there, just need to find it
hot glue is ur friend
don't say that, otherwise i will transform my toolhead in one giant hot glue blob :KEKW:
it works
i mean you're not wrong - but I rather want to know where the noise comes from before gluing everything together xD
i did a small blob on the connectors like they do in psus on capacitors
Look at the voltage supply connector mine was Loose
did you just use hotglue for that as well?
Yes
since I can't find anything else that is rattling -> hotglue it is :KEKW:
Love it after the first print 😍😍😍🤮
hot glued everything still same
Please make a photo 😁
If the hot glue
Maybe to tight
Not sure how much you can see on here, but it's on the side of every connector, even the endstop
the fan and beacon wires look like they are dangeling
This is how mine is looking
Take as much Cable ties as you can
yeah my lower ties are missing, had to cut them open to get closer with the hot glue gun - but I will clean it up in a bit to see if that helps
I really don't think it's the cables tho - I mean I can hear a vibration noise on 57hz with the realtime analysis tool - I just can't find the source - no matter what I touch on the toolhead the rattling stops. At this point I've completely disassembled it and rebuilt it again
Maybe anything else makes the noice and not the toolhead itself
I had my ears next to every part on this printer, the sound definitely comes from the toolhead xD
But obviously im not sure if that's really the issue of this spike
I really really hate it
Everything was good
Then first print
Okay 1 belt was false
A little twist and everything okay again
Second print and t1 x is false
After change it till its mvz again t1 y is false
After change it till its mvz t0 x is false
🤮
sounds like your belts are slipping? maybe?
had that when i initially tightened my y-belts... tried to tune them to a certain frequency (which is - in hindsight - complete bs, but just as a baseline), turned.. frequency rose.. turned more.. frequency dipped down again. i checked the clamps, and sure, belts slipped slowly out. happened on both sides. guess i didn't put them in fully.
I checked them now and they are okay
I also printed them out of pa12GF15 because the abs ones are not really good
oh i just meant that as a example - if you have problems with x, it's the toolhead-clamps maybe. they seem to be problematic often, there are stronger ones out there on printables.
the two on the front
Ah okay nice
Till now the pa12 ones are great
I've once again redid the whole toolhead - I think my spike comes from something else xD
theres no way I build it shitty 5 times
🤣 I think so too
:kekw:
and now onto searching for that needle in the literal haystack...
i just looked at it, and is there a chance it's caused by the x belt? at about the 50hz range its vibrating A LOT - so much, that it's clearly visible
that normal
stop obsesing about it
just get it to mzv
then forget about it for like a month
let the belts stretch
but 2.9k is garbage
yes
it is
:kekw:
i mean.. i can't leave it like that :KEKW:
😂😂
well here we go, my initial IS-graphs for a 300 IDEX... i have a feeling that my y somewhat on the right track, maybe a bit less belt tension? but boy is my x-axis waaaay off and all over the place - or somewhere something is horribly loose 😂
I hate you for your y graphs :madge:
but your x graph will settle once you have it at the right tension
yeah but honestly my y graphs aren't that hot either. if you look at other's graphs around here, there are better ones.
never looked at the graphs for 300 printers to be honest - from my 500 perspective this would be a dream :KEKW:
500 is that tricky to tune?
Nice but now I know like @Helge Keck said
The is graph is not the most important thing on an Idex
It is more important that if you make the vaoc that you can get a good result with only 3-4 times of set up the right offset
I have mzv on all axis too but I need 50 times of changing till my offset is right and after safe and go back to set up the offset its false again
Hell yeah 😂
Do you did the voac already ?
i tried but didn't work out, got some offset error, but i believe that was because of my unscrewed nozzles... wanted to get the belts into a general ballpark and then do all the other calibrations (endstops, vaoc, beacon etc.)
Ah okay 👍
i basically tuned my belts via spectroid with the gantry clamped to the front and toolheads in the middle - more or less locked in place. x-belts in the front around 115-120 Hz i believe, y-belts i did around 100. as i said, with y i could live, but no idea what's wrong on x. could be the umbilicals, could be loose bolts somewhere, could be binding, although i don't notice any significant binding when im ove everything around.
spectroid and other sound tuning apps are useless for idex belt tensioning
and that's why i'm redoing it 😄
interestingly I left my y belts because I couldn't get them to a good value and tried fixing my bowed bed - at the end of the day my y results were on 7k and mvz - sadly I tried to turn my gantry and now I had to start over again :KEKW:
sad thing is, i'm working from home right now and could do a few tuning runs, but i can't... we have ground works around the house currently (company digging trenches for fiber optics cables, one crew digs and cuts the sidewalks open, others put the cable tube in and then fill and jackhammer everything again) so EVERYTHING here is constatly rumbling and vibrating and so on and i think that would completely throw off any IS tuning...
yeah not the best situation for tuning is graphs xD
ok so realtime analysis is magical... letting it run for x+y on T0 gives interesting results... above 40 Hz everything seems fine, peaks follow the set frequency. but on the low end below 40, there seem to be problems... around 30 Hz i hear a clear "ticking" noise from T0 i believe, but no idea how to locate that. around 20 Hz the printer seems to "rumble" and i have harmonic peaks in the output, with the 3rd harmonic (around 60 Hz) having the highest peak.
okay the ticking was the orbiter lever :kekw:
ok looks like my T0 orbiter is super chatty around 20-40 Hz... everything rattles and ticks.
with filament in it?
nope, empty. i haven't printed a single line with this printer yet. still setting up and tuning.
I had the same issue, the wheel on the tensioning arm is rattling af - put some filament in it, just far enough, that this wheel touches the filament -> problem solved
yep, same. for a moment i thought a bearing is bust or something, but no, it's just that damn lever arm. if i unscrew it and just open it up it gets better. although that doesn't greatly influence the harmonics.
but okay, i'll insert a piece of filament in both so they are happy 😄
hm.. i gave both extruders a piece of filament, no more rattling, but my X still seems noisy... went ahead and lowered the tension on all 4 belts, readjusted the tension with the gantry in the back (roughly same tension, measured the distance between the motor mounts and the rail carriages), it's much more loose now and quieter, but my x-tension-graph is still crap...
so i've tightened and tuned the x-belts a bit more again, now it looks like this:
defined peaks around 60 Hz from the belts, for the most part aligned (maybe i'll give the left one a tad more tension), no idea what all the other crap is, especially on the right toolhead. could that come from the umbilicals? loose cables?
well maybe it's really just loose cables and stuff, i zip-tied down my loose 4028 wires (first on T0, then on T1) and a few swings in those upper regions (100-130 Hz) are lower. but man if that's the case why these graphs look like this, then i have to plaster both toolheads with zip-ties till nothing's moving there anymore 😂
ok that printer is officially confusing me. didn't change anything relating to belt tension, just zip-tied down cables and the reverse-bowden on T0, didn't change anything on T1 (just as a test to see if it makes a difference) - now i get this:
regarding those graphs, i'd expect them to be flipped... T1 = right, T0 = left - or is it?
anyway, generating IS graphs for X now...
that's more what i expected to see, still in the 1e3 range though.
@thepete89 1e3 is binding.
Check your belt path
hm, did that, feels clear to me. i honestly can't really "feel" anything binding on x - but y feels a bit sketchy, but also there i don't see anything in the belt path blocking. idlers move, motor pulleys move. could be the rails then.
You are binding somewhere you could have a racked gantry.
i wouldn't say that 1e3 is always binding - I had that too while not having the right belt tension
okay i did a few quick tests, my left hybrid motor pulley was a bit too low, looks like the belt rubbed there a bit. i made it loose, pushed it up a bit, and locked it again. feels better now moving it by hand, running the next IS. but yeah on X i can't feel anything, mybe it is the belt tension (too loose?)
guess it was that damn pulley :kekw: 1e4 - still noisy. but maybe that is belt tension now or other loose stuff.
@VisualTech48 thanks for reminding me to check my belt paths again...
No worries.
@Kyreus of course but in 8/10 it can be attributed to it, just because it's very common indicator of such.
interesting, didn't know that
also didn't know that, but again learned something. with the tension the belts have right now i thought i should easily reach 1e4 territory, that's why i wondered and strapped everything around the toolheads down with zip-ties. that the y-axis has still so much influence on IDEX didn't come to my mind, but here we are. now i'll play with belt tension a bit and look if i maybe find more things that need a zip tie. also can't quite understand that first "hump" in both graphs around 40 Hz - or does this come from the y-belts? the peak around 60 - easy. x-belts. rest? noise from umbilical, flapping cables and crap 😂
erhm... i guess it's too tight now? 😂
ok last try for today, as i couldn't get anything good trying around just with the x belts, i loosened all the belts and started over. this time with both Ys almost loose (just enough tension so that they don't slip) and X/toolhead-belts with minimal tension. now it's like this.. back in 1e3 terretory, but i guess this time it's not because of binding, but because the belts are too loose. still wondering what all that crap between 50 and 135 is, especially on T1. just wanted to make sure that Y isn't bodging my X results, i assume it was. also tuning IDEX is just a nightmare with tensioning/loosening belts, running a shaper and hoping the graphs come out ok 😂
hm.. looking at my graphs from yesterday again after i watched the issue identification part of "How to Read and Analyze Input Shaper Graphs generated by Klipper" again there are only two possible problems: either wireloom doing stuff or a mechanical issue (broken idler was the example) - how would you find a broken idler? when i move the printer by hand i can't feel anything, there are no strange (for my expectations) noises etc.
hm.. ok the relation between hybrid-y and x/dc is interesting... i did what i said, realigend/checked the rails, then finally caved and printed me a belt-tension-gauge-thingy. with all 4 belts at the same tension (2nd marking from LOW) i get this:
if i lower the tension on the hybrid-belts (to the first marking), i get this:
notice that the first peak gets lower/disappears and the power spectral density flips between toolhead-sensors. so i would think that again it is binding somewhere, but it "jumps" between toolheads depending on the y-belt-tension. my guess would be that maybe all belts together introduce a minimal amount of racking, thus binding the gantry, but just from moving and visually inspecting the gantry i can't confirm that for sure - for me everything looks fine.
well crap, back to square 1... tighter belts, same bs as before:
gantry is squared, i loosened the 8 m3 screws on top of the plates with all belts loose and made sure its properly square. i re-tightened the shoulder bolts holding the idlers, i checked the idlers on the motors, checked all the bolts there etc... at this point i don't know what else i could try. :sadpepe: if nobody @here has another idea, i guess the next step will be to disassemble most of the printer again and check every single mechanical piece from idlers, motorpulleys to the motors to the rails. sucks.
1e3 you are still most likely binding.
And my bent atm is on the gantry.
Did you push the Gantry back on the motors
While keeping both toolheads in the middle?
https://discord.com/channels/582187371529764864/1296131270920900720/1296847960939958353
overtensioned
How far do you think he went if he has this noise on all freq?
@Helge Keck
@thepete89 The issue is that you go very low tension then go up.
Keep always in mind you want the belts in harmony
So all 4 belts basicly have to work together.
If you f up the y belts it will be very apparent in the graphgs
so even if i'm doing x, i also have to tune y? it's not enough to let them loose?
and then when i'm done with x, fine-tune y?
and yeah that's what i did the whole time, i just have the problem that with T0 the beacon usb cable is in the way sometimes. cable-routing on the toolhead is a bit awkward.
What do you mean?
Well too loose or too strong belts you get wierd graph.
By loose I mean that it doesn't skip, so tight jsut enough
Same belt lenght as well
I've never seen the cables routed like that, you usually go like a snake.
I'll show you mine gime a sec
So it goes on the sides.
well i took the shortest possible path... but yeah that... makes much more sense.
so guess my task for this week is redo my cable routing on both printheads and check the length of all belts...
but i fear that my X/DC belts are already a bit too short - when i first set everything up and tensioned the belts the front clamps slipped on both sides. had to fiddle a bit to get enough belt in there to grab onto it. i had already cut it down at this point, but oh well, if i busted my belts i'll order some more.
and @Helge Keck @VisualTech48 what big of a margin for tension do i have, for a 300 machine? or is that hard to say?
By margin you mean hz or?
yeah or tension in general. how low is too low, how much is too much.
you start with equal belt tension, ver low, and then you make input shaoer graphs, then tighten them by a 1/8th turn and retune IS, .......
this pattern you have is typical for overtension on a idex
jsut a half turn is enough sometimes
there is no other way then trial and error
its not transmitteable with words here on the chat
importat is first to find equal tension with loose tenioned belts, then gradually more tenions in tiny steps
@thepete89 Listen to Helge.
Basicly you want equal and harmony on all.
Then go bit by bit on the tension
Y is EXTREMELY sensitive.
Because its far shorter.
So Y 1/8 is a must
If you do it too much you will f it up and then you gotta restart.
and basically slow and steady on all 4 belts whenever i change tension, and IS on Y is then just fine-tuning i guess. fun for weeks 😄 but if you both say that it is like this i hope it will eventually play out. tuning an idex is pretty wild.
tuning an idex is pretty wild.this isnt a pony hotel here
yeah, thank you @Helge Keck @VisualTech48 - i just hope that there is no hidden mechanical defect. because after what you said i think all that power spectral density stuff for a normal corexy can go out the window too?
i always interpreted it like that, the higher the number, the "clearer" the resonances are and the better it is for input shaping. if you can't get a clear signal - well then somethings busted in your mechanics.
Its not clear cut on the IDEX.
I've seen both good graphs and trash prints and vice versa.
You have to just get decent graphs, and then do test print
If it sucks you f up somewhere
:kekw: so basically IDEX is trail & error all the way
i wonder if the realtime analysis could help with a rough tuning of the belts and then do the finetuning with IS
For me it's been fun. I'm nearly done. I can't wait for the mandala metal toolhead belt holders though..
I'm crying right now b/c I know what you mean. I'm hoping this last shaper graph for T0 will be below 1% and I can go. print
those are nice. would be so great to have a MRW-reseller here in europe, especially germany. it's not really viable to order anything from mandala because of freight costs, taxes, tariffs etc.. ordering stuff from the US is stupidly expensive right now.
slowly getting somewhere now... guess anything better than 1e4 is almost impossible to achive, so my main goal rn is "get both x-shapers in the 1e4 ballpark and make them agree on MZV" :kekw:
ok this printer is shitting me, now they both dropped down to 1e3 and 2HUMP_EI... aaand i'm starting over tomorrow :stare:
Hahaha I just gave up and just look at the result of the print
at least knowing that my belts are somewhat equally tensioned would be nice, a proper working IS is just the cherry on top. but like this it's throwing red hering after red hering towards me. i mean i even had the x-gantry out this week because i thought something was wrong. idler-assemblies not properly inserted to the extrusion or something like that. nothing. i pulled both x/dc-belts out to make sure they are both the same length. they are now. i de-racked the gantry a few times, both with belts out and belts in again. it's as square as can be now. i re-tightened all the bolts and screws i could easily acces.
i just can't wrap my head around why it won't go over 1e4, and most of the time with only one toolhead, or with completely different shaper algorithms on both toolheads IF they both manage 1e4 with veeeery low tension on all belts - that graph was with what, i believe a little bit over the first marking on that belt tensioning tool you can print? so very very loose, just tight enough that nothing slips off of idlers and pulleys. so from my feeling, too loose. then i went up again and here we are, 1e3 and 2HUMP_EI on both heads...
i don't think it's anything mechanical because i checked the idlers when i had the gantry out, they roll smooth. rails - maybe a bit rattling (could be that my lubricant i used is a bit too thick) but not binding or sounding "damaged" (but i must be honest, i never had a damaged rail, so i don't know how that would sound, but i'd imagine it would sound horrible - grinding noises and stuff. i don't have that). and frame-wise, the only thing i did at the very begining was adjust one side a bit with slight taps as my bed mesh showed me a high spot in one corner. that's it.
i have similar experiences, i dont have a chance to get the left t0-x to more then 500.000, where the t1-x head was something like a poc to get that to over 3.000.000 and with a curve that cant be better, id did hundereds of tension adjustments from flattering low to iron rod like tension and on no point a nearly satisfying curve. the x-mgn rail is a little bit bended in direction of z before installation (maybe this is a reason?) I use linearrail lubricant aswell, that is thicker then oil, but i used that on t1 too. Im clueless. Also also checked als pulleys rebuild the beltholders on toolhead, adjust all perfectly square. All supersmooth, no rattling, just silent
same. thought maybe my belt on T0 is rubbing/binding somewhere, but that's just when it's super loose - with more tension it runs okay again. no idea what to do. experimented again today, got it at one point where T1 had MZV with 1e3 and a good peak, but broad base, while T0 had two huge peaks, 2HUMP and also 1e3... guess i'll just do it really rough, do the rest of the calibration and then wait for a proper detailed guide on how to do belt tension and IS on idex machines. like this it's too much trial and error for my taste.
maybe some guidance on how to do rough tuning/belt tensioning with the realtime analysis tool would be great, as every shaper run takes some time, even if you only do it on x or y alone.
there i noticed that T0 has multiple spikes between 10 and 40 Hz shaking frequency, above 40 you just get a single peak on the frequency you are shaking at, so i think maybe there's the reason why my graphs are so bad, but no idea what that could be. holding the umbilical or cables on the printhead or other stuff around the head doesn't seem to influence those peaks.
I'm having the same not fun experience
I have to change two shims and then I'm going to try new belts as well
ooof. well i re-did the rails (removed old thick grease, added new grease - WD40 specialist white lithium grease) and added the 1mm padding under the bottom steel plates. i have a feeling that this improved things a bit and dropped the noise floor, but i still have to figure out proper belt tension now. and if that isn't working, guess i'll also have another look at my mechanical assembly.
The belt tension has me really fucked up. I'm not motivated to keep working on it
I've been working on it for 3 weeks
I'm about to just go back to hybrid
going to hybrid would suck for me, would mean i'd have to get new belts
and i wanted the idex specifically to do multi-material-stuff 😄 guess i'll just try and get it "as good as it gets", see how it prints, and go from there.
I also do. I’m just tired and frustrated lol. I’ve been at it for 5 hours lol. I’ll try again tomorrow
same... i built the printer in 3-4 weeks. well that was 4 weeks ago...
what for me gave alot of improvements, was to reinstall the clamps on a "special" way: I Installed them first without the longer screw, that prevent the clamp to get pulled out, and after tightening all and controlled twice, that all tooth are correctly in place, i installed the longer screw
i think, the "problem" comes, when you use grease instead of oil for the rails
after install the clamp this way i get nearly 10times higher values in belt tension-measurements
due to the grease the wagons on the rails are a kind of stiffer (like on a milling machine). So i think they have less chances to generate unwished vibrations
maybe you can print a more advanced clamp to prevent the clamp to bend
Can you please show me what clamp you are talking about / take a picture
What order are you all tightening the belts? Corexy and then hybrid?
GitHub
RatRig-PrintedParts/Toolheads/Rat Rig V-Core 4.0/PP000315-rr_toolhe...
This repository contains STL files pertaining to all existing, as well as obsolete, 3D-printed elements used in our products. - Rat-Rig/RatRig-PrintedParts
Its an idex, so you have to install both, i did the y-first
Are you talking about the y hybrid holders?
no in my opinion the X-clamp is one of the problems
the STL i linked
the clamp flex to much
and has a damping effect
the clamp flex far more on T0 then on T1
I have aluminium ones from Mandala roseworks.
nice 🙂 i dont know that this exist, maybe it will help me
i'd like these clamps too, sad thing that you can't get them easily in germany
looks at MRW shop well a set costs 25$... the cheapest shipping option is almost that amount on top (USPS international) 23.69$ - and then i don't even know how much tax/customs i have to pay once they are here, as the EU and esp. germany cancelled any form of free imports for private people if it's under amount of X 😂 i guestimate that i would likely have to pay another 25-30$ just in customs/taxes on top. thats almost 80$ or around 75 € just for two metal clamps :kekw:
Our site now calculates VAT for under 150 Euros, so you won't get dinged anymore.
so VAT, Taxes and everything is done if i'd order from germany?
Yes, only thing to note is that if you get a bill from Duetch Post, you need to send them a copy of your receipt from my site.
And technically, anywhere in the EU
nice :chefkiss:
I wish I had your graphs. I'm struggling with T0
Follow the guides i posted
Will work out
you mean the guide from @Xulkal or did you post one yourself?
His one
When you started from no belt tension. Do you turn each a certain amount or just use the belt meter to get even tension?
Use the belt meter at 1.3kg
Then adjust from there
I’m going to have to figure out 1.3 kg on my btt belter
Get some belt and hang 1.3kg water bottle from it
Make the belt like 500mm
Thank you for this. Appreciate it
you can also just use a scrap of belt, that's what i did. the tension shouldn't change much, the force is the same, regardless of belt length
well, it should be long enough to hang it somewhere, sure xD
BTT Belter reading with 1.5kg object is ~6.30mm
I'm going to make a video of this, its pretty damn smart @D00M-_ , @thepete89 and @Xulkal
what do you think about those graphs? VC4 500 IDEX. I can´t find consistent info about how to properly tune the belts.
dont use those graphs. they have no relevance for idex. Use is
those are my graphs. t0 looks very off. I checked all screws and tightened the wires, but don´t know what else to check. any suggestions? thank you
are they good to check belt tension, or really no relevance at all?
for idex they should not be used at all
follow the video posted earlier
does performance mode need to be activated?
if u have active cooling on your stepper drivers then yes
You may be low tension.
I'll write-up how I tensioned my belts and cleaned the graphs up. Still not perfect but I can print idex now
so i think my X axis is looking pretty good?
but i am not so sure about my Y axis...
or perhaps my x is kinda tight...
My y is the same
I tensioned everything until mzv on y got down to sub 2%
It's printing well now
You have to make sure to evently tension. make sure to go in 1/8-1/4 turns on all until y improves