Trying too hard - Topic of the day 1/17/25

What do people mean if they say you’re trying too hard? Do you think you try too hard? Is it ever a negative thing?
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167 Replies
Yakkeks
Yakkeks5d ago
sprezz tuah!
awburkey
awburkey5d ago
It means they're uncomfortable and you can probably ignore them
Wonkymythology
i try too hard because it's fun
Smiles
Smiles5d ago
No description
awburkey
awburkey5d ago
Fashion is about experimentation. You're going to have bricks, you're going to wear stuff that doesn't feel like "you". You'll wear outfits that are affected or too much and that's okay!
zeometer
zeometer5d ago
depends- if you're being you're true and authentic self and people say it's trying too hard, then that's them trying to come to grips with your own personality in which case fuck them
warpweftwatergate
People (idiot men) on the internet mix up “trying at all” with “being a tryhard”. Sorry that I wanna look cool, Steve—why don’t you go put on your bazinga tee and whine about it while ya pound dirt, nerd
zeometer
zeometer5d ago
if not - whether because you're trying to force an aesthetic or vibe that is diametrically opposed to who you are then maybe it's worth reflecting upon
tun🌻
tun🌻5d ago
If someone not into fashion says you're trying too hard it usually means you look good and they don't know how to do that
Weeg
Weeg5d ago
Elon musk wearing a leather jacket and telling the audience to go fuck themselves is trying too hard. You are not trying too hard by rolling up your pant cuffs or giving a tie a shot
zeometer
zeometer5d ago
i think it's largely contextual but i think the only person you have to consider about "trying too hard" is yourself i like being extra 🙂 it helps make the day go by and i just like it, sue me
Weeg
Weeg5d ago
With the gift of hindsight i can see a few fits where i was trying too hard in my early days of fashion experimentation, but if i hadnt done it i wouldnt have learned where my personal line is
Wonkymythology
i do think you can look 'uncool' if you give off an aura of trying too hard but life is short and i personally love seeing people who are really into their thing (even if it's not my thing) so it's worth the embarrassment imo. sincerity is fun to be around
anasthesia-
anasthesia-5d ago
I never brick (Because I run a lot of bricks at home to try to put together stuff that works) If that’s trying too hard sue me
Yakkeks
Yakkeks5d ago
Yeah, I think genuine cases "trying too hard" are usually rooted in inauthenticity
zeometer
zeometer5d ago
the more often you do it though the less often you get the "try hard" comments - i think @The Teenage Gentleman lol and charlie are the alpha and omega of this but there are plenty of others who i look up to in this regard
awburkey
awburkey5d ago
pithy comments aside, I think this is a real thing that happens, especially to folks just starting out. You're exploring a lot of new styles, changing up a lot of things and probably making some waves with people you know. That can be hard! I hate making waves! I often hate being the main character IRL. Don't look at me or I'll shrivel and die.
Weeg
Weeg5d ago
Maybe trying too hard is where it crosses the line in to insincere Not to derek guy post but jordan peterson and his heaven hell suit is trying too hard
calla
calla5d ago
imo "trying too hard" is just another way of saying that you're uncommitted and look unconfident your outfit, it inevitably happens as you're in the awkward experimentation period but i bleieve that it fades with experience and a critical eye
anasthesia-
anasthesia-5d ago
Yeah: it all comes down to one thing
awburkey
awburkey5d ago
Trying out new stuff easily comes across as inauthentic and insincere and I don't think it's reasonable to say that's a universally bad thing
sharloy
sharloy5d ago
I don’t think trying too hard is a thing because who wouldnt want to try hard. However, when people say someone “looks like they’re trying too hard” it usually means someone is poorly styled to a point that a lot of the styling choices are noticed and noted as being not pleasing. For example, using accessories that don’t work like pocket squares and monocles in a business casual setting, or wearing a lot of clashing patterns in suiting. In itself, they may not look good, but if styled correctly, people wouldn’t be saying this person is trying too hard.
Wonkymythology
yeah i regularly moderate what i wear if i'm going to meet with someone who might be suprised by it. sometimes it's not worth grimacing through the bemused compliments LMAO
Sam
Sam5d ago
hey guys am i trying to hard with this fashion thing
warpweftwatergate
No Try harder
Smiles
Smiles5d ago
ya what char said tbh agree with that, its mostly a skill issue or people just don't like you which happens thats ok though
warpweftwatergate
I really wanna see a monocle in someone’s fit now
awburkey
awburkey5d ago
to be srs for a moment. I think this can stray too far into the 2025 version of
step 1: be attractive
step 2: don't be unattractive
step 1: be attractive
step 2: don't be unattractive
I was wildly inauthentic when I started on my fashion journey. It takes time and effort and bricks and experiencing wearing those outfits imo in order to find what you like and what works for you
zeometer
zeometer5d ago
i think there's a difference in intent between "i'm trying something new as a form of personal exploration and am uncomfortable" and "i'm trying something new to appease or adhere to someone else's standards and am uncomfortable"
Smiles
Smiles5d ago
you just have to brick and you have to ask for feedback
awburkey
awburkey5d ago
Great point, I agree!
anasthesia-
anasthesia-5d ago
I mean for me swag is basically just confidence
Smiles
Smiles5d ago
if your only feedback is yourself im sorry its doomed
iambic
iambic5d ago
I agree it's about discomfort with your projected image
anasthesia-
anasthesia-5d ago
But I see your point
iambic
iambic5d ago
I do like to see overdressers though keeps things interesting
Ant
Ant5d ago
I associate 'looking like you're trying too hard' with very obvious/intentional matching of colours (e.g. wearing bright red shoes and a bright red jacket). It can come across like you're 'forcing' an outfit, particularly if you're ignoring other aspects of what might make things harmonious (e.g. similar aesthetics, textures, culture)
Sam
Sam5d ago
got it :linkBow:
gv
gv5d ago
The times I see people trying too hard is at fashion weeks. Usually it is people who do not care about dressing as much as we do normally but now want to peacock and usually come with an attitude that they have adopted where they think they can be judgemental about others out of insecurity.
sharloy
sharloy5d ago
I can’t pull that off lmao
Yakkeks
Yakkeks5d ago
I still remember the first time I wore my orange corduroy suit out and about. People were absolutely staring, I got a few comments and i was feeling very self conscious. Now I just put it on and if ppl still stare I don't notice. Also no comments anymore
ginsoul
ginsoul5d ago
if people stare at me I love it lol whenever I wear my cape outside people stare and make (positive) comments and it gives me life
warpweftwatergate
I don’t think anyone can tbh Lol
ginsoul
ginsoul5d ago
another phrase I hate is "the clothes are wearing you"
sharloy
sharloy5d ago
But at fashion weeks you can also see the people comfortable dressing in all designer and styled well, even more extravagantly than the people that look like they’re “trying too hard just for fashion week” Idk like willem dafoe maybe lol
warpweftwatergate
Mood
warpweftwatergate
Oh god sorry Stevie LOL
gv
gv5d ago
that's true. thats how you can immediately identify the ones who are really about it and those who desire to be perceived as being about it
warpweftwatergate
I tried to pick the most average white guy name
stevie
stevie5d ago
wowwwwwwwww
warpweftwatergate
I’m digging myself a hole here :xd:
awburkey
awburkey5d ago
if ur not gonna try hard at fashion week when are you gonna tho?
anasthesia-
anasthesia-5d ago
Isn’t peacocking the whole point of clothes
zeometer
zeometer5d ago
pitti uomo is currently ongoing and the distinction between the two is apparent imo
gv
gv5d ago
run around to meeting and working?
anasthesia-
anasthesia-5d ago
I peacock every time I leave the house is there a problem
calla
calla5d ago
the secret is that im always trying hard
ginsoul
ginsoul5d ago
they're just jealous you look better than them 💅
gv
gv5d ago
no but in all seriousness, you can see the difference and like i said it usually just comes with an attitude thats the underlying problem you can sense the insecurity
sharloy
sharloy5d ago
Some people dress to stand out and some to blend in. For example, AF1s are to blend in.
anasthesia-
anasthesia-5d ago
corpo af1s my favorite
awburkey
awburkey5d ago
I simply do not subscribe to the idea that confidence with the exact same clothes takes an outfit from brick to legit
ginsoul
ginsoul5d ago
wearing mine to comedy show tonight
awburkey
awburkey5d ago
If that were true Donald Trump would be the best dressed man on the planet
ginsoul
ginsoul5d ago
gonna be reppin
sharloy
sharloy5d ago
There’s confidence in your styling
SHamster
SHamster5d ago
Jewelry is something that I've had to work on not viewing as someone "trying too hard". Feel like it entirely comes from toxic masculinity coloring the perception of men wearing jewelry, which just kinda shittily oozed it's way into my brain.
zeometer
zeometer5d ago
this is gonna sound pretentious as all hell but trying less hard is more difficult for me
calla
calla5d ago
no no no i get what u mean my style is fundamentally built on me trying really hard
zeometer
zeometer5d ago
or, alternatively, some of the things viewed as "tryhard" became a lot easier (wearing a tie or jewelry in particular)
awburkey
awburkey5d ago
Sure, I just feel like this convo gets reduced to something along the lines of "the clothes don't matter! Just have swag and be confident!" which is obviously false
gv
gv5d ago
no it also has to do with knowledge. people who try too hard are usually people who lack the knowledge to get the details right and they know this and thats where the insecurity comes from they know their persona is a house of cards
zeometer
zeometer5d ago
or don't have a fully set intention on what they want to look like
anasthesia-
anasthesia-5d ago
But I mean there is an intangible aspect to it right like otherwise all those color season and kibbe types trying to phrenol- I mean, science clothes would work
zeometer
zeometer5d ago
which isn't to say you need to have a full outline of your inspiration and stuff if wearing an ocbd and jeans but just having the idea helps
Yakkeks
Yakkeks5d ago
I think your making the argument too symmetrical. I think a good outfit can be ruined by lack of confidence, but loads of confidence alone won't make a fit good.
calla
calla5d ago
unconfidence in outfits i think often comes from trying for a look but not getting why that look actually works, so you end up creating this awkward outfit tha's only superficially the look you're going for
anasthesia-
anasthesia-5d ago
And also, it’s ok to be learning and brick a bunch even from your unconfidence
calla
calla5d ago
yes!! its how i got better at fashion there were (and still are) many bricked outfits in my day to day life
awburkey
awburkey5d ago
I think my point is just that it's a fairly complex social issue. What's the context for the outfit? Fashion week vs interview makes a difference in the perception. Where you are in your fashion journey makes a difference. If you're newer and trying stuff out you want to be a try-hard imo. You need to put the clothes on. You need to brick fits. To some degree I think if you're in the hobby that should always be true. I could certainly be projecting too much meaning on it, but "trying too hard" isn't the same negative thing in all contexts. Newbies are often desperately trying to avoid trying too hard and I think that's wrong. But also just saying "oh it's all about confidence" isn't a helpful answer to get over that hump.
anasthesia-
anasthesia-5d ago
I’ve revisited outfits that were bricks earlier that are not bricks now with some minor changes!
Yakkeks
Yakkeks5d ago
i think there is a difference between trying hard and trying too hard. I think trying hard is generally a good thing, but sometimes too much of a good thing blocks progress in the long run. For example someone trying too hard might be way too caught up in getting specific details of their fit right to reflect how they really feel about a fit. In my experience fashion is a journey, which means it takes time and sometimes you need to sit with something for a bit before personal progress sets in. Its a bit like overthinking
awburkey
awburkey5d ago
No I think that's a great point and helped me connect what smiles said earlier about men often confusing trying at all with being a try-hard. The nonchalance of it has always been a thing in menswear in various degrees of toxicity.
pinkkea
pinkkea5d ago
i love this you guys are so mean can you? really?? sense my ass
gv
gv5d ago
go to soho house during pfw you can tell
Elvander
Elvander5d ago
on it
pinkkea
pinkkea5d ago
go to the mirror and look at yourself
gv
gv5d ago
idk why that would upset you lol but its just my experience, I think you can sense it. I've tried to explain it but my explanation falls short so the only thing left to say is that if you go to those places you can experience it for yourself
sharloy
sharloy5d ago
I think this is confirmation bias lol you are only noticing the people who obviously aren’t used to wearing what they’re wearing I am insecure You cannot tell
pinkkea
pinkkea5d ago
i just don’t like your holier than thou attitude honestly
gv
gv5d ago
sorry
artvandelayimporting
girl omg lmao
sam
sam5d ago
literally me too nobody can tell unless u rly look at my body language my first like 3 yrs i spent on online fashion spaces was me being maximalist and trying too hard and it got me really far i don't think it's like that anymore but i would've definitely identified with what seldom said in that my style was defined by trying too hard
Ninjury
Ninjury5d ago
Some of this seems to be getting into the subjectivity / objectivity of what looks good. I think people are using the term “confidence” in two ways. If you think what looks good is more subjective, then confidence is being used more a pointer for swag or self-confidence and that seems like a necessary ingredient for authenticity. But if you think fashion/art/beauty has objective standards then it seems like confidence is used more in terms of epistemology: I.e are you right, and how do you know? I think there’s probably a healthy balance between the two Sorry if this is a very armchair philosophy analysis, that’s just how my brain works
Sal
Sal5d ago
It's about context Trying too hard is a commentary on appropriateness/context Execution of a look is sort of a sub-issue T2H i think is more commonly used to say that an outfit or look is just out of sync with the context or event Like a perceived formality clash with your surroundings, for example
sam
sam5d ago
still (and you're probably not arguing against this) there r contexts in which that's totally fine—i wore some CRAZY shit to class in high school and don't regret it at all
rcmontgomery
rcmontgomery5d ago
When I think of trying too hard, the first thing I think of were the guys in college that went way too all in on wearing Vineyard Vines bow ties and the like in a weird attempt to make preppy frat culture their entire identity. Especially if they overdressed in weird settings
Sal
Sal5d ago
For sure, it's just one of many commentaries and I do agree it's an overtly negative way to point out that there's a desync goin on If someone's in the back of the class shouting slay bitch thats a much more positive way to say the same thing
sam
sam5d ago
wait that's actually so real it's essentially the same thing
Sal
Sal5d ago
Like you're just communicating "you didn't have to go so hard, and I [Love/Hate] it for [You/Me]"
Despairagus
Despairagus5d ago
Yeah I think there is such a thing as "trying too hard", but I'd define it more along the lines of trying too hard to fit in with a group or an aesthetic that isn't really you. When it comes to experimenting and having fun with fashion, there is no such thing as "trying too hard"
rcmontgomery
rcmontgomery5d ago
For sure, trying too hard to “fit in” is actually what I had typed out in an earlier version of my comment. The other real type of trying too hard would be trying too hard to show off. That can be with flashy wealth signaling items or by spending too much time trying to look perfect to go to the grocery store.
carrion
carrion5d ago
yall cannot tell me you can look at a mfer on the street and say "yeah that's a real lumberjack"
artvandelayimporting
there is nothing wrong with looking perfect to go to the grocery store lmao
artvandelayimporting
this man is a postal worker
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rcmontgomery
rcmontgomery5d ago
Haha, I actually agree. It is hard to get the point across I want. I think we can all sense the difference when someone is caring about how others perceive them vs dressing well because they like to
Sam
Sam5d ago
smh should've worked at FedEx
rcmontgomery
rcmontgomery5d ago
That is a great hat and outfit all around
Walmart the Conqueror
Only coal miners can wear jeans, the rest are just posers How do you distinguish between someone “trying too hard” to fit into an aesthetic that isn’t really them vs experimenting with a different aesthetic And how do you determine what aesthetic is “them”
Steve
Steve5d ago
I think it comes in two forms. One is wildly overdressing for the occasion. Which I think is where the swag comes in because that can still be fine. Being the "suit guy" when no one else is can work fine as long as you own it, it's when you don't it gets awkward. The other is more what we are discussing and it's "overdoing" an aesthetic. To me, it's basically where it crosses the line from fashion/style into "costume" but that's still very subjective and depends on the person. I think the boundary between experimentation and "trying too hard" is always going to be blurry. Most people here seem to advocate for gradual experimenting as opposed to advising people to suddenly get a Mohawk and dress like he's in a punk band when they normally just wear chinos and ocbds. Also important to keep in mind almost all of us will have an episode of "trying too hard" somewhere in our life (fashion related or otherwise) and that isn't a tragedy. We overdo it, shrug, learn and adjust.
zeometer
zeometer5d ago
we being the members of a fashion discord or "we" bring society? to some extent i think caring about how you're perceived or rather the validation from being perceived accurately is reasonable, whether its for basic biological purposes (someone identifying as male intending to present as masc) or basic social survival (a Black person not wanting to being seen as "threatening"). i agree that putting stock in others' perceptions in lieu of authentic expression is not great because it's hard to sustain and self-limiting, but there's valid reasons to put in effort in service of others' views
Despairagus
Despairagus5d ago
Yeah there's definitley a lot of shades of grey here. Fashion is very much about communication - your choice to dress a certain way is inherently going to affect the impression you make on other people. When I would describe someone as "trying too hard", to me that looks like trying to communicate something very superficial and material about themselves without expressing a facet of their personality or identity. Like, you could dress in head-to-toe Gucci in a way that communicates creativity and playfulness, or in a way that merely communicates financial status. To me, the latter is trying too hard. Though I suppose there's a fair argument to be made that the former is also trying to communicate status, particularly to those with knowledge around designer brands.
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awburkey
awburkey5d ago
idk i think the 2nd is just a bad fit
sioku
sioku5d ago
how do we even define "trying" or "effort"??? a fit that seems like a lot may not have taken a lot of effort to put together and there fore woudlnt' be "trying too hard"
rcmontgomery
rcmontgomery5d ago
Both but was referring to this discord. I was clarifying since it is hard to convey on here. When someone's only look in all settings feels very buttoned up with perfectly coiffed hair, it starts to come off as a compulsive need to put up a front. I would say the formality doesn't match the setting, but they aren't even dressed inappropriately for most of the settings. It’s a gut feel more than anything Because I also know people that dress more polished where it never feels forced.
SHamster
SHamster5d ago
I think this kinda shows just how uselessly nebulous the idea of "trying too hard" is. If you like how some people who consistently put effort into their appearance dress, but not others, it's not that the ones you don't like are trying too hard. You just don't vibe with their fits
OceanicEternity
Ok so if I saw those guys up top I'd think they all look cool.
SHamster
SHamster5d ago
Idk, I guess I feel like trying too hard is overwhelmingly just used as a synonym for douchebag. Someone brought up vineyard vines bowties earlier, and like, is that trying too hard or are frat boys just annoying in a way completely unrelated to an ugly bowtie?
Steve
Steve5d ago
Important distinction: "This outfit flopped because it seems like you/it are trying too hard" != "This person is a 'try-hard". Not to say there isn't overlap or that both aren't relevant to discuss. Just that we shouldn't conflate them.
Ninjury
Ninjury5d ago
That’s a good point, Steve. I think there’s also something about status that’s worth considering. I imagine that someone who holds a lot of status in a given group is likely to “get away” with great disparity from the norm. But someone who is lower status in that same group wearing the same thing may not be given as much leniency. To the extent that that’s true, I think the perception that someone is trying hard says as much or more about the perceiver as the perceived. Also, I wonder how physical attractiveness plays a similar role here. People that are conventionally considered attractive probably also have more leeway on what is (even subconsciously) acceptable
carrion
carrion5d ago
no its just swag, i fear
Steve
Steve5d ago
Oh absolutely. Just because the CEO shows up in jeans doesn't (necessarily) mean random office bee gets to do so. Same thing in reverse - dressing for a board meeting when you work in the mailroom is not likely to land. Physical attractiveness may play a part, but I actually think personality does far more. The confident, gregarious person can wear a tuxedo to sweep the floors and "own it". Tldr - what carrion said
Despairagus
Despairagus5d ago
Intra-group status is definitely an interesting concept as it relates to fashion. If someone is perceived as a leader within a social group, I’m certain their fashion choices are in turn perceived differently by other group members, both consciously and subconsciously
Ninjury
Ninjury5d ago
Yeah and I also think there are maybe different dynamics at work vs non work
raisinpie
raisinpie5d ago
I think y'all are trying too hard in this thread
NotDisliked
NotDisliked5d ago
A lot of the things being talked about at this point in relation to "trying too hard" IMO have absolutely no bearing on how other people view and evaluate your fit their the lens of trying too hard.
raisinpie
raisinpie5d ago
you can try hard to impress people by wearing clothes you think will impress them or you can try hard by spending an hour in your closet trying to make an outfit idea work and having a complete menty b (never done this btw)
NotDisliked
NotDisliked5d ago
if you dress in a way that makes you happy and that you feel confident in I think it will simply look effortless, regardless of anything else. and I'm sure people have said this plenty in here already (and it's basically what raisin just pointed out) but plenty of people will associate any amount of intentionality in an outfit as an amount of effort, and some people will decide that that amount of effort is "trying too hard", but often that may be because they are putting very little intention or thought into how they dress and are confused or insecure when they see someone else putting in that effort.
raisinpie
raisinpie5d ago
you used a lot of words to basically say this
sharloy
sharloy5d ago
I can use more words
Smiles
Smiles5d ago
I agree with beans above about that but like ya i think its all been stated here already broadly people mix up bad styling with people who don't like your fit with people who don't like you trying too hard is an insult why people insult you varies sometimes it can mean you bricked it sometimes they don't like fashion sometimes they don't like you only the first matters
raisinpie
raisinpie5d ago
sometimes you deserve it
Smiles
Smiles5d ago
lol true
raisinpie
raisinpie5d ago
which loops back to this
zeometer
zeometer5d ago
you're certain, and so is this guy-
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Despairagus
Despairagus5d ago
Do you like W David Marx? I haven't read anything by him but I've had Ametora on my reading list for a while
zeometer
zeometer5d ago
good writer, status and culture suffers from a flawed thesis imo
Despairagus
Despairagus5d ago
What’s your take?
zeometer
zeometer5d ago
i think he assumes people are way more solely focused on acquiring social capitol than in reality there's a degree of self-motivated action that guides some of our social interactions including how we dress
Despairagus
Despairagus5d ago
Mmm yeah I feel that Seems like something that could vary a lot from person to person
anasthesia-
anasthesia-5d ago
Worst marx Karl and Brothers clear
adaptation
adaptation5d ago
Wrong there’s this physicist that was fucking annoying
warpweftwatergate
Is this a gyorgy Marx reference LOL
adaptation
adaptation5d ago
Correct
goblin
goblin3d ago
i think as long as you arent uncooly appropriating a subculture without understanding it at all (urban outfitters battle vest) then you are probably fine but even if you aren't you can still wear clothes!
Smiles
Smiles3d ago
this shit the stupidest argument ever can't wear doc martins if you aren't a punk guys pack it up gotta beat up people at shows to wear docs
goblin
goblin3d ago
i do not care about doc martens at all to be honest but i think it is cool to be aware of the cultural context of clothing because that is one of the most interesting parts of fashion to me
Spuck
Spuck3d ago
Doc Martens aren't a specifically punk thing at all. Like everyone was wearing them in the UK back in the 80s and loads of people still do
Smiles
Smiles3d ago
Motte and Bailey ass response, being aware of is very different than being unable to wear cause you aren't part of a subculture ("culturally appropriating" a subculture like ?)
Spuck
Spuck3d ago
A good quarter of my wardrobe is culturally appropriated from the military :gigachad:
goblin
goblin3d ago
i am unfamiliar with motte and bailey and realize that i may have misconstrued my belief, i will clarify: i think it is cool to be aware of the cultural context and connotations of your clothes, i do not think you CANT wear that clothing, its your clothing not mine i cant tell you what to do thats silly
Spuck
Spuck3d ago
Motte and Bailey is a type of castle
goblin
goblin3d ago
just googled it
Spuck
Spuck3d ago
Yeah that confused me as well
goblin
goblin3d ago
i understand now useful logical fallacy!
zeometer
zeometer3d ago
if i may ask how is this relevant to trying "too hard"? or rather how do you see its relevance to trying too hard, because imo "trying too hard" implies an awareness of what the clothes convey and an intentional effort to be perceived as such
rcmontgomery
rcmontgomery3d ago
I don’t think that is the case though. My takeaway on more reflection is that trying too hard is more a trait of the person than the outfit. I was probably wrongly attributing too much of it to the outfit.
goblin
goblin3d ago
fair point, i see the topic questions as ways to talk about things i want to talk about so inject things i want to say in them even if they are not that relevant
Ninjury
Ninjury3d ago
Not gonna lie, I think that’s precisely the opposite of what they are for
sam
sam2d ago
get her jade!!
goblin
goblin2d ago
i have no shame 🫡
Sam
Sam22h ago
The first time I got exposed to Doc Martens was from The Beano lol
Sam
Sam22h ago
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stevie
stevie22h ago
man comics fucking suck huh
Spuck
Spuck20h ago
Man, this comic old enough that Docs were all made in the UK
zeometer
zeometer13h ago
would rather women comics

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