Inconsistent Flow on each print/ day
Hello,
This is ABS and I have little gaps in the massive infill but also a little bit overflow in the top layer. I print with 15mm/s max flow and have a speed of 200mm/s on the infill and 100mm/s on top layer.
I am thankful for every idea or Tipp.
933 Replies
@miklschmidt hello 😁 can you help with printing too or only the software ? 😁😊
@Helge Keck maybe it is a problem that I have here 0.6 nozzle but using a 0.4 ?
No
Classic example of exceeding flow rate. You might need to print it hotter, or you need to slow down (either slower speed, less layer height/width etc, whatever you want to reduce the flow rate), and make sure you calibrate your extrusion multiplier and PA for that filament at the speeds you're actually running in practice (not some slowed down version).
1) print a temp tower
2) find max flowrate with a flowrate test
3) set slicer settings so it doesn't exceed flowrate
4) calibrate PA
You need to do this for all new filaments.
Yes I do this for every printer and for every filament
Also I slowed down to 8 max flow so 100mm/s but also no changes
I also tried to calibrate the flow while printing this print but if I set the massive layer perfect then the top layer has much overflow
what slicer are you using?
Orca and tested Prusa too
I'm asking because if you don't have extrusion issues and you've calibrated your PA, that's the only source of error left
PA does not look calibrated in your images though
But today I tested the flow again and now with a flow of 1.008 it looks good on all layers
But the odd thing is…
maybe as simple as wrong layer line widths for the different features
But that wouldn't create gaps unless he didn't adjust the layer width but just yanked up spacing
The upper one is 1.008 flow and the other 0.96 but looks really similar
thats true, but must be a slicer thing as you said
its too consistent to be hardware issue
indeed
those are both overextruded 😂
Yes a little bit but the upper one is 1 flow and the down is 0.96
Hmm i wonder if that's the issue on the top one as well, lighting is just deceiving.
No a lot
Is this ABS? Usually i need like 0.91 or less with ABS.
It’s on the picture
Yes
ABS
But with this I have issues in the massive layers
Your flow should be tuned for top layers.
So do that
(see guide)
What do you mean have more flow ?
Both of those are overextruded
You need less. Not more.
Yes
This is less
The top one have 1.008
The down one have 0.99
No that's more
That is the strange thing
No
😄
Yeah said you tried 0.96
This was yesterday
0.99 and 1.008 are both more than 0.96
I printed this at the moment
This was yesterday
All of this is too much, way too much
Try 0.90
Yes but if I go more down I got holes
A quick another question make it sense to set the microsteps to 16 ?
240 is also very low for ABS
you should be at 250-260
I have 275
It says 240 in your profile
what's the top number?
It doesn’t matter it only says min and max but it doesn’t matter
I print with 275
Weird
That's a lot.. but ok
You're still overextruding 🙂
Haha yes
What do you say
Yes but it won't change this
Okay okay then I will print now with 0.95
Yes tried this
I used the orca flow calibration
Minimum 10 tunes
Times
But if the top layer is perfect
Then the massive layers have holes
I never had some issues like here and i have 10 printers here 😁
Only say that you know I don’t do this for the first time haha
So now I did again this test
91% was the result
But with 91% I got holes
But also some layers are without holes
Flow 0.92
Flow 0.91
The 0.91 flow looks like Moore flow then the 0.92 🤯
@miklschmidt @Helge Keck
So something is wrong with my 2nd head
First layer perfect with the second then again underextrusion
Then a test printed just 6 layers 5 pcs perfect the 6th lower extrusion
I took the sock away from the nozzle and everything is full of filament I think somewhere something flows out
But what I don’t understand is why it fits in a moment and then again not like such a wobbly contact
Can you explain that somehow?
nozzle not correctly tightened
or the 3 rapido screwas are not tight and it leaks out of the heatbreak
I took the sock away from the nozzle and everything is full of filament I think somewhere something flows outWell that explains a lot 😄
Yes this must be because the z offset is 0.03
@Helge Keck checked the toolhead and everything seams okay now
But still on the second layer massive unterextrusion all over the plate and then the 3rd layer was good again
This is second
This is 3rd
The nozzle is also clean
This is the flow
Or should be
Have you checked your extruder tension?
Yes
This is with 0.96
This is with 1 flow
But here looks 1 too much
(Upper one is 0.96)
looks good 👍
Is this with 0.96 too? and what layer?
Yes second layer and first layer was good height
maybe print with a little bit more temp or less fan
Have 280 degrees for ASA
also make sure your nozzle is clean
Yes the problem is that if I calculate the filament with 50x50 cubes then 1 flow looks too much and 96 looks good
But in real it was too less
the hole of the nozzle
It is clean and I let the Silikon socked away to see if something comes where it should not haha
It’s clean too
then you cool down the nozzle with the fan
I see a problem here. The extender nut should be (hot) tightened against the heater, not the nozzle.
i see a gap
What
Don’t understand what you mean
Bad idea
Cooling will fuck up your flow without the sock
Okay know now
I will now put it back on
And start a test print again with 0.99 flow
Ah you mean this one ?
yes
stay at 0.96
Okay
So no Fan is active
This is 0.99 flow
Yes the socket is off but if no fan is active this should not matter or ?
Another thing is that I have 0.04 mm z offset between the toolheads and the screw normally is completely screwed in
0.99
1 Flow
I tried to screw it Moore in but it seems like the maximum also on toolhead 0 is the gap
really seems like you may have messed up the feature specific flow rates in your slicer
What do you mean ?
he means its not the printer its your slicer profile
But what can this cause ? Do you have ideas ?
So 100% Flow is too much in the end
Or do you have a profile for me that I can test (then I will change only temperature flow to 0.96 and pa)
Yes, if you have set different flow rates for different features..
No only for the first layer 2% Moore
100% flow is always too much for ABS
explains why your second layer is bad
Don't ever adjust flow rates on a feature basis (except for bridging). If you struggle with bed adhesion change the line width, not the flow rate.
This is ASA
My fist problem was with ABS and my result was 0.95 wich was good
Okay then I will set this to 100% check the first layer height and test again
Same
check the first layer height?
what do you mean?
If my zoffset is too far away
This is the problem I think you think or ?
Ah.. As long as you're not actually measuring the first layer with calipers and using that as an indication of anything lol.
No, i think your issue was your slicer
Okay no haha my only problem are the holes
So you mean if I set the flow for first layer to 100 then it should work ?
0.3mm first layer height. Flow 100% across the board, except for bridging.
Will test it now
Okay I think this works 🥲 don’t thought that this little first layer difference make so much difference
Thank you very very much
Now even the 96% flow looks like too much
Yeah told you it’s supposed to be like 91 😅
Sounds like it might be heading in the right direction...
Can you explain me why first and second layer is good and 3rd layer have holes in and then after infill it looks good or a little bit too much like 1% flow too much
So it didn't work?
If I go down to 95% flow I have holes in the 3rd layer
If I go with 96% then not but then the top look a like overextending
Sorry, I don't know, something is wrong with your filament, extruder, hotend and/or slicer profile.
Since it's so random like that, i really think it's a mechanical or slicing issue.
Are you using a reverse bowden like you're supposed to or are you just running the filament straight into your extruder?
It's hard to tell without seeing your slicer profile and detailed pics of the hardware (including internals).
I use a Bowden
What do you need will send you everything 😄😅
Could be something stupid like an offset extruder gear
How can I find out
:kekw:
check if the grooves are aligned
And check if the grooves are aligned with the hole/tube.
open it up
Okay will check this
This is false or ?
yep
Okay 👍
This is now 95%
This looks good
So 95% second layer
3rd layer
4th layer
This is periodic underextrusion..
From layer to layer it’s getting more worse till infill and top layers
Send me a debug zip, i'm thinking you may have messed up the current or something
Okay one minute
Or your tension is effed
or your hotend is effed
😄
It's very clear that this is not a slicer issue from that picture.
The lines reduce in size
Yes think so too 😄
Current is correct
The odd thing it’s only on the layers bevore infill
Sad 😄 this would be the easiest way
So either your tension is bottomed out or barely grabbing the filament
Or your hotend is damaged.
Can you hear it skipping?
No
There is no skipping
Not enough tension then i would assume, unless the hotend is damaged. Or you still haven't put the sock on.
Or you haven't hot tightened the nut against the heater as i mentioned earlier
My sock is back on 😄
Yes I did
Okay, so you're now down to 2 things:
Extruder tension too loose -> tighten it.
Hotend damaged, possibly heatbreak -> disassemble the hotend and inspect all the parts, particularly the heatbreak.
Okay I will print the same file everything same with head number one
My tension should be good
how do you know?
I tried to pull it out but I can’t only if the extruder is spinning
And you're sure it's not too tight?
I don’t really now
I think it is not too tight but it’s just what I think
You should calibrate it by starting loose, then tighten slowly until you can't pull it out when the motor is engaged and extruding.
How does this look for you ?
like a nozzle that isn't properly hot tightened
and way too much tension
Now the nozzle is at 270 degrees i will loosen it and screw back in again
And then I will bring the filament in like you said (or the tension)
The extender nut, is it just a nut or does it have an M6 thread like a nozzle?
If it's just a nut (ie, you're using volcano nozzles), screw it down towards the tip nozzle -> hot tighten nozzle, then hot tighten nut against the heater.
If it has an M6 thread, first hottighten the extender, then hot tighten the nozzle.
What do I have ?😁
I literally can't tell when it's assembled.. (plus that is not hot tightened...)
Okay wait
you have filament leaking out
Are you using V6 or Volcano nozzles?
V6 = short, Volcano = long
V6
Okay so:
first hot tighten the extender, then hot tighten the nozzle.
Okay
That nozzle thread is covered in plastic
You gotta clean all that off
Plus inside the adapter
I will also take a new one
How can I do this
(Will do this tomorrow and take both new
Heat it up to ~100-150 ish, then try and peel it off with tweezers as much as possible
When tightening these you need to use ~2Nm force.
Okay
Okay
It’s now in
And now the new nozzle
How much nm for the nozzle
doesn't look right, looks the same as before, but the threads were clean so i guess it's good enough.
same
And it's heated to 270 degrees here? When you tighten it?
Okay back in Both with 2Nm
Yes
Aight 👍
then try again
Now the filament
If there's still holes, time to disassemble the hotend
Yes will now check the tension then will make a test print again
So filament in and pull out while thigten
Till the extruder is spinning or ?
Now I have 0.5mm less tension (the length of the screw which is outside bevore 10.5 now 11mm)
Will start the test now
@miklschmidt so nothing changed
Time to tear down the hotend and find the problem.
Here I go down with speed to 3mm/s cubic
But also the holes
Yeah your hotend is broken
Or your extruder, but we already ruled out the common extruder issues.
Okay at the hot end what can be broken here ?
I will test now toolhead number one with same file
your heat break
Or your missing the PTFE tube between the extruder and hotend
etc etc.. things like that
Start disassembling
Okay print now with toolhead 0 and if this works then yes if it don’t works too then I have to disassemble both 🙃
Okay same on toolhead 0
Well that makes me question everything
Okay I don’t know what I can do now …
Haha
Test again with different filament. Preferably something from a quality brand like prusament. Not the same brand and colour as you've been using in case it's from the same batch.
Yes will test this
Normally this is a industrial manufacturer (CR3D from Germany)
Maybe the extruder gets too hot ?
I have 55 degrees in my chamber the hole day
@03Julian04 What filament is exactly that? Is it perhaps a composite? Like CF?
No at first it was ABS and now ASA X both from CR3D
WHat pops on my mind, is your filament path.
What is your PTFE tubing like and what is the actual PTFE you are using?
I use this from ratrig which came with the vc4
This is PETG from Extruder and this have no holes or anything
Could be theat a lot of friction is in the tub ewith the other material
I personally use 4OD 2.5ID
I also tested to feed the asa to the extruder directly
But it seems that the temperature are different
Same material different printer the right one is much Moore shiny like PETG should be
I will now print a temptower to see where it gets shiny
I am very curious how much temperature is needed here
Sounds good. It varies a lot even by different colours. I recently tuned up some old Prusa (not Prusament) transparent brown PETG. 85% flow/extrusion multiplier, 0.04525 PA, 230 first layer 255 the rest to suit Prusaslicer 0.2 QUALITY VC4 HYBRID profile. The flow and PA are very different to other PETG I have.
The 1st vs other layer temp difference is often needed due to the 1st layer printing a lot slower.
Yes I tune every filament on every printer new only the temperature is what I take and maybe change 5 degrees
How much difference do you have with your temperatures between the vc4 and other printers
I think Prusa's own profile for the petg I mentioned has 230c, compared to my 255c on vc4. First layer temp was similar though, it's just for the other layers due to the huge speed difference.
Also a traditional temp tower will be misleading because it has small layers and prints slow. I dialed in by watching fast solid infill (eg solid bottom layers except the first layer). At lower temps it looks matt or a bit scuffed. I increased temp until the glossy look appears.
Note that printing fast and hot will show little mercy for damp filament. If you get a lot of stringing etc, try drying (more).
But even with this slow speed 255 degrees is matte and I can print with 280 degrees and looks still perfect 🤔 can this be true ? I have a hardened nozzle (I tell because I think these need more temperature but so much More ? ) on Prusa xl with hardened and bambulab with hardned I print with 255
Did you actually change the temp?
Yes it was automatically over orca slicer
From top first layer to holes on top layer
@Helge Keck @miklschmidt are anyone at the Formnext ?
I found the mistake…
It was the nozzle.
Yes I changed and tried also a new one but not another type I used an hardened nozzle.
Now with an silicone carbide nozzle from phaetus I have no problems anymore. (The hardened was also from phaetus)
Damn
how annoying...
We damn near tried everything and then it's all the god damn nozzles. sigh... Phaetus..
Glad you figure it out though, that was a tough one
Oh yeah … now I am with abs at 94% 😁
@miklschmidt okay I don’t solve the problem
Don’t know why but now it only happens after a long print
This was a test bevor the print without changing anything even the model is the same only not cutted
Hello everybody ( @tg73 @miklschmidt @VisualTech48 @Helge Keck ) till now I don’t get any solution for this
Tested very much
Tested also with PETG from extruder and there is the issue too
This was yesterday with 1.017 flow
Today with 1.017 flow (the top one)
Yesterday with 0.974 flow
Today with 0.974 flow
Here in the microscope you can see the layers behind the top layers
So definitely no Mountain
Are you seeing the same issue with both toolheads?
And are both toolheads configured the same?
If you have not done this, please do it: https://youtu.be/8vf_gY5Qg2o?si=VRQ8N4qwH84xCs6g
OrbiterProjects
YouTube
Orbiter v2.0 filament path adjustment guide
Orbiter v2.0 filament path adjustment guide.
In case you have received your sample with the filament path misaligned and following this video guide you do not succeed with the alignment please contact your local reseller for assistance or get in contact with me over our official Facebook page, we will help you as best as we can or send replacem...
Yes
You mean in the printer cfg ? Yes its the same
Did this already
Also the physicial configuration - nozzle etc?
Yes everything the same
Do you have an Idex v4 ?
I have hybrid VC4 500 (fully operative) and an IDEX VC4 300 (pending commissioning, I've been too busy). What are you thinking?
I've ordered the new 2.5 orbiters and will report back. Even though both of my orbiters are okey they have too much wiggle in the idler spur gear. (not the one you can adjust)
Next up is testing if @03Julian04 This happens with a direct deposit to the extruder, which means I recommend testing with the rolls being on top so there is almost 0 restriction to the orbiter when it prints.
Could be friction related as well.
Can you provide some wider views like this but showing 2-4 times as much of the print surface. And a few more examples, and a few with the print tilted a bit so it's not dead straight on to the lens.
Tested this also
I feed the filament directly to the orbiter by hand but no changes
you mean like this
@Helge Keck @tg73 @miklschmidt
What are the known problems of the rapido uhf ? I don’t know what else it could be.
Maybe temperatures varied while printing but the sensor doesn’t measured them
I think I checked everything else
In the absence of any further conventional troubleshooting steps, I suggest the following which are long shots:
1. Replace the silicone sock if you still have it removed. Run PID tuning on the hotend.
2. Reverse the hotend fan (ie, unscrew it, and flip it over so the label is facing forwards). Do some test prints and report back. Note that generally running with the fan reversed is not advised as it may lead to heat creep jams. The reason for trying this is to eliminate one other potential source of gantry bowing. It's also easy to try. It will most likely have no effect. Return the fan to the stock direction after the tests.
3. Remove your belts and run them through this guide thingy in various pairings (preferably print the guide thingy on a known-good printer, normal PLA works well). This should reveal some kinds of manufacturing defect in the belts that affect tooth pitch or profile. A pair of belts should move quite freely through the guide. If they bind at any point, this indicates a defective belt. Defective gates belts are very rare, but they do happen - I had this issue on my Prusa XL, and it was the first time Prusa had seen the problem (Prusa forum post detailing my diagnostics linked).
https://www.printables.com/model/931011-gt2-timing-belt-equal-length-checker-and-cutting-h
https://forum.prusa3d.com/forum/original-prusa-hardware-firmware-and-software-help/significant-distortion-on-first-layer-skew-straight-lines-print-wonky/
Printables.com
GT2 timing belt equal length checker and cutting helper by tg73 | D...
A little tool to keep two lengths of GT2 timing belt aligned to help cut exactly in half or match an existing length. | Download free 3D printable STL models
Original Prusa 3D Printers
Significant distortion on first layer - skew, straight lines...
I've made a test project which extrudes a single line to-and-fro, like this: I print it, then scan the finished (single layer) print in a (high quali...
Ah you mean that one belt is thicker then the other or what should I exactly test with this test
Test (3) helps detect belts being too thick, or eg the valleys between teeth being too shallow, or the spacing between teeth being wrong. The expectation is that the defect fluctuates over the length of the belt, so it's very unlikely that two defective sections will cancel eachother out. When I run my defective XL belts through the guide, they move freeley except for some regions where it becomes impossible to pull them through.
Your Prusa post looks like my layers
Ah okay I will test this
It's a royal pain to remove the belts to check, and it's very rare, which is why I didn't mention this before.
Yes
If you have some other lengths of gates GT2 you can check against those too.
But I am looking for the reason since 3 weeks
No I don’t have others here
So I will test everything And also I don’t have any other ideas
I am thinking of to buy the dragon uhf hotend to test it with this one
Ok, so trying different pairings against each other should be good enough. The hybrid belt was almost certainly cut from a different roll of belt than the xy belts (by RR).
Ah okay will Check the 4 belts across
I'd leave changing the hotend until later. You see the same problem with 2 toolheads on the same motion system. You've thoroughly checked both toolheads. Either you have terrible luck with both toolheads, or a systematic assembly issue yourself, or it's not the toolheads causing the problem.
And at this point, I would want to rule out the motion system.
Another thing
Here I got overextension with 0.963 flow
2 days before with 0.963 I have underextrusion
Did I see that you're running a ti tube?
Yes
Did you do those prints with the silicone sock installed or not?
Yes
Is installed
Just take it off bevor 1 week or so only for 2 prints
But did the lid tuning with the silicon sock on it
What does the plate of parts for those prints look like?
And remind me what size this printer is?
And what nozzle temp, bed temp and chamber temp?
500
Silicon carbide nozzle from Phaetus 0.4
ABS
240 degrees nozzle
105 bed
50 degrees chamber
I mean, what's the layout on the build plate. Screenshot from the slicer would show it.
Ah wait
To be clear, these questions I'm asking about the prints are not related to the belt checking. That's a separate thing. You should focus on the belts first. These other questions are related to the top layer inconsistency from one day to the next.
You mean this right ?
Yes. So just one part in the middle of the bed, not 10 at once or anything like that?
No both one and also 4 or 5 at one time
These were printed in one print
This one was printed alone (cut the model in the height)
This one was 100% same settings but not cutted
Why 🥲 is there so much difference
@tg73 do you know why I have in the right front corner more space to the wall then in the back
Have you checked the belts yet? Can you do that first. XY distortion cold be a factor.
Yes I think the belts are the reason for this because if I print with 1500acc the gap is gone
But at what should I set the belts up ? I mean I had mzv with 6-7k acc but the print looks like this with 4K acc 🤯
This checking of belts https://discord.com/channels/582187371529764864/1306313632233033781/1312804349826695198
Yes will do
Belts okay but not tested the reversed fan
But I don’t want to test this because the fan live is going down so this is no solution for me
Yes its overflow but you can see now really good the inconsistently
Same on perfect flow
Make the max flow test and don’t have problems till 35mm/s2
And this print is with 25 max flow
@miklschmidt @Helge Keck maybe you have some ideas ?
Sorry that I tag you again but I don’t find any solution
I have ordered the dragon UHF hotend to test it with this one
But till then do you have any ideas anymore
Sorry man, i'm all out. Did you take the hotends apart like i suggested, haven't seen any pics at least?
Yes 3 times
Changed also the nozzle 3 times and the uhf adapter
have you ever tried to print with more temp?
Yes I was at 260 degrees but it was too shiny for abs
imo this isnt underextruding, its inconsistent extruding
But yes I tested
Yes
imo 260 is not too much for abs, i print it with 265
Yes normally (on Prusa and Bambu) I print with 275 but because of the long melting zone of the hotend I had to go down
if its a rapido 2, then you wont have the 260 at the nozzle, you have it on top of the meltzone
i woudl just try to print it once with 270 for example
Yes rapido 2
Okay I will give it a try
i would also change the nozzle, just to rule it out
Yes did this 3 times
Have tested normal Brazz
Hardened (with 290 degrees then)
And at the moment silicon carbide
All from phaetus
And the optical. Indicator that it is way to shiny what about this
I mean I will try it haha but if its working then what about this 😁
who says abs needs to be matte
No not Matt
totally possible the brand you use is supposed to look shiny
But not as shiny as PETG
Print this brand also on Prusa and Bambu and if I compare the optical then the 245 are the same optical result
But yeah I will test it and write in 1 hour back 👍
i would even say this is overextruded
Yes
This is the right value
But I just want to try
94% Flow is this
This is printed with 270 degrees
Same problem
Can you please show me what all the parts look like then, we need to make sure there's no subtle damage. I'm not talking about the toolhead, but disassembling the rapido itself into all it's components so we can inspect it for faults.
It could be something dumb like the heatbreak not being properly secured in the heatsink
Yes I will make this later
The wierd thing is that it is on both heads …
Will send photos later
@03Julian04 Can you run this?
Print a 200x50 cube
That has 5 top layers
and then change flow
From 100, all the way to 80
In the Mainsail/Fluidd while its printing
And mark each with a marker when you do the change.
Go even 70 if need be
Then after than
Jump to 110
and go to 130
By jump I mean in increments of 10
So 100, then 90 and let it print for some time
Then 80
Then 70
Then 110
120
130
And then post results
Okay will do this tomorrow have disasambled at the moment
No worries.
YOu should have a nice strip, that tells you a lot.
This is how I calibrate my flow
On any new filament nowadays.
It's not uncommon that the rapido's need to be properly reassembled out of the box. Wouldn't be the first time.
He's done it quite a lot in this thread, the results are pseudo-random and doesn't seem to be speed related either.
I have already disasambled everything from the temperatursensor over the heater to the cooling zone of the rapido but yeah
i wouldnt be surprised if you ahve a small red plastik part in the filament path
But I will send you pictures later
Why red ?🤔
Yeah okay, i just wanted to make sure i couldn't spot something weird, because imo we've tried everything at this point, except that.
a small red plastic ring
Yes but this sill check for consistency, as well.
If he runs for example 20 lines for each flow
If they have the wavenies even on low/high flow
Either his extruder or rapido is f*
Don’t saw this last time but also I don’t looked for something
i've gone back and forth to this conclusion multiple times in this thread 😂
I think I can say the extruder is okay because I change to an orbiter that works on a v minion
i've seen picks of the extruder and gears everything looks normal.
Okey then your Rapido is f 😄
Rapidos
Could be you overtighten the rapido heatbrake and bent the thing?
it happens on both toolheads
Of f
What about extruder power?
But if he tried another orbiter
also checked and verified
THat wouldn't be.
So rapido it is?
I don’t know 100% but don’t know what else it could be
we don't know. He couldn't find anything when he disassembled it the last time.
yeah same
If he overtighen it could be the heatbrake middle part no?
I've seen it taper if you torque too much
Now I have ordered two dragon uhf but to build this up It needs more changes than I thought before have them
I'm sorry you're struggling so much @03Julian04. Tbf this is quite a unicorn situation, unfortunately not in a good way 😂
Why not rapido aces?
They seem to be nice and their heatbrake is solid af.
What about PTFE tube that feeds between the extuder and the rapido?
Don’t know
I only new a person how have the dragon with the same filament I am using so I thought if he have the same I can compare
Tested and changed from the original to a 2.5 and then to a 3 inner diameter
And if I open the orbiter I have zero resistance till the rapido comes
Hm, waht, 3 ID for the inbetween?
Yes
@miklschmidt Correct me if I'm insane, but inbetween should be tighter like 2
So it tapers correctly into the heatbrake.
What about pressure buildup, printing too cold perhaps?
Tested printing only 0.4 width and testet from 230 to 275 degrees
DId you try the 2ID tubing perhaps?
By hand if you push the filament does it come out nice?
If you apply the same pressure?
Yes same result
Yes
What do you mean
This was max flow test from 25 to 35
Remove the orbiter, cut 100mm of filament and push it by hand through the rapido when its hot
And then
See if it the line goes straight down
Or if it goes sideways etc.
Maybe its not keeping up the temp as promised.
Worse luck would be bad ceramic heaters.
But I have no idea how to test it
This is what I think
correct
this is a good test
@miklschmidt @VisualTech48 @Helge Keck what do you think how much temperature do I have here ?
It is a dragon UHF
The reason for the question is what material do I need to print this off ?
The reason for the question is what material do I need to print this off ?ABS/ASA should be fine.
Although there is no space between the printed part and the sock
It is a little tight and i would've preferred the sock to be below the part, but should be OK.
Okay the parts are printing now and tomorrow I will test it
@Helge Keck @miklschmidt @VisualTech48
So now with the dragon hotend the same result so the hotend should also be fine
What I saw now is that if the head prints in 45 angle it looks more inconsistent then in 135 angle
The down one are in 45 and the upper in 135
Maybe the x axis have an twist or is not straight
The head it self I think can’t be the problem because I have it on both heads
Same model just the next layer
@miklschmidt @Helge Keck can I set the z microsteps back to 64 or should I let them at 16 (there was a Problem with accuracy while making the beacon contact compensation that’s why I turn them down to 16)
You can try 64
won't change your prints though
I maybe found the issue
I have changed the x tube I corrected with captontape the bow of the tube but I don’t make a new beacon calibration after this so I have the false x twist data
omg
So you were using a wrong contact mesh this entire time?
No not a wrong contact mesh but the wrong of this
that is essential what the contact mesh is, just with more points
this doesn't do anything in itself, it's just testing to see whether you may need scan compensation or not.
rerunning this does nothing.
Ah okay 🤔 so then this is not the problem
nope
I took the belts out and in again to check they are okay
Also lubed the x axis again and maybe this helped 🤷🏽♂️
But I am still testing
But this was the print that shows always the error but at this time not
Did you just run
BEACON_MEASURE_GANTRY_TWIST or did you run BEACON_RATOS_CALIBRATE ?
The former does nothing, the latter does a lot.
could have been a belt thing.I run the beacon_ratos_calibrate again yesterday after take the belts out
Will see how the next tests came out
I will update here the results
What do you mean with the latter ?
If this all doesn’t help i think I will reset the complete ratos
Maybe I have anywhere a false value
BEACON_MEASURE_GANTRY_TWIST doesn't change anything. BEACON_RATOS_CALIBRATE changes a lot.Okay it is not solved
Could this be a issue ?
I mean it is perfectly easy in the middle and the back end only in the front it is stopping
uh yes
your rails are binding
good god your tension is horribly out of tune
Did you skip the tension graphs and IS calibration completely?
Gantry is skewed
No I had mzv
You took out your belts multiple times
everytime you mess with belts you need to run the graphs again
Hopefully the binding is just because your tension is all messed up
You think I run them to often ?
But please go through this: https://docs.ratrig.com/commissioning-guides/v-core-4#belt-tension
No i think you don't run them enough
You might want to do step 10 here first https://docs.ratrig.com/v-core-4-0/mechanical
This is perfectly aligned
Also the belts were good with mzv
Booth belts the same hz
No it's definitely not
The end of your video shows how it's not aligned
That's not how you check even tension
you need to run the belt tension graph
line up the peaks and amplitudes
it's all in the guide
Go through the guide carefully
I did them all
I will send a new video where you can see it is perfectly aligned
It's not weird at all you're getting inconsistent prints when your tension is so messed up, the binding causes all sorts of fun problems
What tension do you mean ? In the video I haven’t installed the belts
do it again
Oooooooh
I did not notice that
Well then we're back to
Do this without the belts. loosen the screws on your X-Y joiners
tighten them down while the gantry is square
Then add the belts
And then you need to redo your tension graphs (because you will have overcompensated for the mechanical skew)
Yes I mean this
I will do this all again to be 1000% sure
What do you mean with overcompensated ?
@miklschmidt how is this possible if I had the same hz on left as on right ?
@miklschmidt why do I got this
Normally on this strength of the belts I have mzv (on t1 I have mzv with the same thightening)
Who told you to tune with a spectrometer?
it's useless
Full of issues here
For starters, your belts are not the same length (from attachment point to attachment point, teeth inside grabbers don't count)
It looks like it's way overtightened too, but it's hard to tell from the noise, could just be crazy binding in the Y rails.
This explains all your problems though.
I am working with a trummeter
They move really free
This is without the belts
Left and right without the belts don't matter.
Because the belts skew the geo
You can bind you rail easily by hand.
While with belts it keep the tension and keeps it square
Okay I will check the frame again if there is everything 100% 90 degrees
Just mesure diagonally.
ANd then when you put the belts they will pull it correctly if its the same lenght.
You mean here ?
Basicly yeah
There I have a difference of 2mm
This is a Precision hair angle
0.2 is a kinda in that range of perhaps you should fix it. But I'm no expert there.
@miklschmidt
Can you chime in here?
Yeah that is not ideal in my opinion at least.
And also look here https://discord.com/channels/582187371529764864/1314714986664296518
Maybe the ti tube is a little bit too long and it pressure against the rails
Yeah but you could've adjusted the printed parts to be a bit depper for that
But this kind ahole on the frame is not ideal square wise.
THat is why you usually wanna get that solid
Before even going to everything else.
What do you mean
I think I order this and adjust the complete frame again
You can all do it by hand really.
No need for a 134 euro bracket.
You just need a flat surface where you will assemble it
Yes I thought so haha but the first time it doesn’t work like we see 😂
😄
Perhaps you rushed it at the end and gg
Maybe haha I will check this out
@miklschmidt what do you say to these things ? (That the printer is not 100% in 90 degrees )
Can this be the reason for those printing errors ?
Can this be the reason for those printing errors ?It's not directly the cause, but it's definitely contributing, your rails are not parallel, your toolhead should not move forward on it's own, that's very bad.
No its only moving forward alone just because of the ptfe and the cables which are pressing against the top cover
Ok, then move on to graphs. If you struggle getting them right, consider squaring the frame better.
Okay will check if I found time in December I have to make a move to a new home
I will write back if I found the time
@miklschmidt hello again I have now a little bit of time after the move and before my kid is born on Thursday 😁 so now I disassembled the x and y motors to check everything and assemble again. There I saw this printed plate from ratrig and it looks like the same problem like I have …
What is the max chamber temp you have ran at?
I think 60 degrees
From what I've read, 60 degrees is the limit for the Orbiters acetal sun gears. May be worth inspecting for their quality.
Do you have any filament shavings insider your orbiter... where the tensioning arm is?
No it is clean
I will look at the gears
Sorry it's been frustrating with this, I just read through this whole thread this morning and had a few ideas.
Tell me all ideas haha I don’t have any ideas left
There's 3 things this could be, in my opinion.
Assumptions:
Your prints are coming out dimensionally accurate (within reason)
You have your temperatures tuned appropriately for the filament
Your Input Shaper charts are relatively clean
The issues:
Pressure Advance (I still feel very strongly it is this)
Too much flow (nozzle temp drops as more filament comes through)
Extruder slipping (unlikely, but possible)
Do you have orbiter 2 or 2.5?
Orbiter v2
Flow should not be possible I tested more then 5kg of filament with different flow settings and so on so I am 99% shure it is a mechanical issue
As the orbiter V2 does not have knurling on the shaft, I'm curious if your set screw is loose and the drive gear is loose. Have you tightened the set screw on this gear?
I will look at this
I have also to say it is on both extruder (i have an Idex)
Have you measured a 50x50 cube print to see how close it is?
Yes is this right
So the size is right I got +- 0,1mm accurately
ok good
That eliminates motion issues. This reduces it to filament/feed/slicer issues. I saw you have ran the filament direct to the extruder, without any PTFE tube guide. Is this correct?
Yes tested this also
I also installed a third orbiter v2 from a minion which works bevor
But same problem
So orbiter moved from minion, which while on minion worked great without this issue, now creates the issue on your ratrig?
I installed a dragon uhf hotend with everything new (heater, temp sensor, nozzle) but same problem
Yes
can you send your printer.cfg and a picture of the inside of your Orbiter? (where the filament path is?)
Yes of course
thank you :)
Give me 20 minutes the I will send you both
I can open the orbiter in 15 min because its printing a test object at the moment
your pressure advance has not changed from default... I know you tested but have you modified it for other prints?
What do you mean ? I type it In the filamentsettings in the orca slicer
hm
As far as I'm aware you should change pressure advance in printer.cfg
Uncomment this line
and enter your good pressure advance value
also, I'd like to suggest using prusa slicer for testing prints
simply because we can eliminate the variable of orca slicer (which yes I know they are based off the same thing, but we can start from default values)
You mean the pressure advance ?
yes
Okay
If you insist on using orca slicer, I'd suggest removing the pressure advance value in that slicer and trying again
So 3 prints same settings prints them just one by another
Okay will do this so uncomment the pressure advance and also take it off in the orca slicer ?
yes please, uncomment the pressure advance and enter your value that you found during previous testing
or enter the value you have in orca slicer
then remove the value (set to 0) in orca slicer
It may not make a difference but worth checking in my opinion
Okay will check it
I also tested with Prusa slicer I remember
But same thing
good to know, thank you
Now bevore I uncomment the pressure advance I start a little print just to see which value is set here
that value, as far as I'm aware, does not go into prints unless you set it during a print. It's an override from my understanding
Ah okay
Then I will test with uncomment
So the test print is printing with uncomment Pa and set to 0.028 and also switch off the pa in orca
Print needs 15 min will write then
Looks really similar to number 1
agree
what material and temp?
also pic of orbiter too please :)
ABS 235 degrees
Yes I have to take it off give me a minute
no worries, you should just be able to unscrew the tensioner and take pic inside that
no need to take whole thing off
Ahh
We can worry about the sun gears later lol
Okay 😂
maybe it's just the angle... But looks like some shavings in there?
Just the angle
Ok got it.
For entertainment purposes, could you do one at 255c? 😅
Running low on ideas, but one last thing before we check sun gears
Yes of course ( I tested from 230 - 310 degrees so yeah … 😂)
But yeah I will test it
ok thank you. One last thing.... how many top layers do you have?
6
Also tested with 8 and 4
Also tested with 8 and 4
WOOF
ok nevermind
This is with 255 degrees
The last two prints looks okay
I will print over night 4 pices in one print (this was the print which always have issues)
What I did now was to completely disassemble the xy frame and reassable it + disable pa in orca and uncomment the pa value in the printer cfg + write 0.028 pa value in it
So will see how it comes out tomorrow
I do not see any holes in this print. This looks good
Yes
Appreciate you putting up with my question barrage lol
But I have this also in the past that 3 prints looks good and then holes again without changing anything
Keep me updated, but I'll wait to come up with more ideas till this pops up again
What do you mean ? Sorry my English is okay but yeah only okay 😂
Yes thank you
Your english is great, no need to apologize. I just mean thank you for tolerating me asking a lot of questions lol
Ah yes yes I mean maybe any question helps also if I forgot something and then I remember it because of your questions so yes ask what you want to 😂
So this is the result …
Here are the holes again
Layer number 4 first layer was good
But always in one direction
You can see that two lines are perfect aligned and then holes then two aligned then holes
I know you said you changed the hotend, the nozzle too?
Yes tested multiple nozzles
From a normal brazz over an hardened nozzle to an silicon carbide nozzle
when you did pressure advance tests before, did you use in the in-built pressure advance or the Orca Slicer one?
Orca slicer
Hm
What's the max temp you've printed with?
hotend
310 with the hardened nozzle
ok looks like the time is now...
Can you check two things for me (super clear pics would be awesome)
1: The orbiter sun gears?
2: The small piece of PTFE tubing between the orbiter and the hotend?
The small piece I also changed and tested but yeah will send you photos
dangit well I guess worth checking again
thank you
I have to say thank you
We'll figure this out, I love troubleshooting unfortunately lol
The top looks good again
Only in the layers in the middle I have the holes at the moment
Looks okay to me
And this is the pref
Both look good
Hmm another idea ?
Another PID tune, with chamber and fans at the temp/speed you usually run at
Then pressure advance test using RatOs built in test (load a 50x50x100 cube, slice with maybe 2 walls and 10% infill, 2 bottom layers and 2 top, then after it starts the first layer click the PA test macro)
Ah don’t know this exists will test it
What jerk values do you Commend (500 mm v4)
I have no clue I leave mine at default lol
Haha okay 👍
At the moment I print a test in copy mode with same filament on both heads to compare
Interesting, lets see when it's done!
So top is right and Bottom left
I am so fucked up of this fucking problem I am so close 👌 to sell this fucking machine
🥲
so right is good, left is bad?
Not 100% good also some little gaps
I mean, much better however
That is right
Left
and you've tried different filaments?
I guess that one is a little too obvious
Yes
PETG PLA ASA and this is ABS
What printer do you have ?
Did you end up doing the built-in pressure advance?
400 idex
Not till now tested both heads first
ah that's right, sorry
Can I print a gcode from your printer 🤔
I asking because it was interesting to print the same file on two printers
you can try if you'd like! Send me that file and I'll slice it. Are you on 0.4mm?
oh wait
do you want me to try and print your gcode? or for you to try and print my gcode?
Yes I have 0.4
Send me yours
Just a square 70x50
And 3 mm height
ok, add this to your printer.cfg and save config and restart firmware
Okay
Just for the information … why ?
Eliminate your RatOs Post processor from modifying anything in the file... This at least gets rid of another variable
Just a heads up, I'd be prepared to stop the printer at any moment. I do not know how it will behave with 400 gcode
Okay thanks I will test
again, be VERY cautious
Yes my finger is on the off switch 😁
Till now it prints without a problem
this is good news
lets see thhe top layer when ready
No sorry not without wholes just the printing thing haha the printer prints without a problem the print it selfe i don’t know it is printing haha
How much flow do you have in this file ?
1?
does this look good?
No too much flow
Can you send the file with 0.93 flow
Please 😊
0.93 flow
Thank you will see the result tomorrow I go to bed now haha
Will update here
I adjust the flow over the interface to 0,94% so from the 93% 6% more down so I think 87% round about
Looks good I think (or looks good in the way that there are no gaps)
The rough pattern doesn’t look really good
Maybe the orbiter have an error because if I press the filament into the orbiter then the print came out nice
The upper one is the one which I pulled the filament in
Looks a little like over extrusion. Did you ever check the torque on the little set screw in the orbiter?
Do you have a heatsink on your toolboard? (Send pic if possible)
This is all inside a heated enclosure for these prints, correct?
At first yes in an enclosure but till we write I don’t have the enclosure on it. So these „new“ prints since you are here are without enclosure
What do you mean with heatsink on the toolboard ?
Yes I looked at the torque but don’t know how to set it correctly at the moment I just tested with the flow so I screw it in make a flow test and the screw more in flow test and then I take the best result as the torque.
Your EBB42, the toolboard on the back of your extruder, can you send pic?
Head 0
Head 1
Ok thank you, i was concerned that the blue heatsink was not installed
So we eliminate that variable
I bought now a Sherpa mini extruder to test it with this one
At the moment the adapter plates are printing
I'd be curious how that turns out. Your testing with the filament I think narrows it back down to extruder slip or filament path issues (along the ptfe tubing)
Yes thought this too and that is why I tested the last print without the ptfe and feed direct to the extruder per hand but the same error
Odd... Very odd.
Yes … if this extruder have the same error then I am fucked up haha I don’t have any other ideas left …
Looks beautiful 🥰
Oh yes if it now works beautiful too then I love it haha
I do have a few more thoughts if this doesnt work, so all hope isnt entirely lost. Just more filament :kekw:
Ah never mind just put round about 10kg on this machine 5 more or less 🤷🏽♂️😂
Looks like the same error
Can you try the in-built PA tower test? :)
Yes at the moment I make an flow calibration print with the new extruder and then I will make the pa test
How does the PA Test works exactly
Th build in one
https://discord.com/channels/582187371529764864/1306313632233033781/1331028246552117290
It works by adjusting the PA as you go up in layers, so then you measure which layer area looks the best and that determines your PA
Ah okay and every mm is another value or how do I measure it.?
Correct. Every mm is 0.001 PA :)
Ah okay
Very odd
This was with flow 93 so from 0 (93%) to -0.05 (88%) no big difference
Thanks
have you measured Z height on your prints?
No not till now
Thought after the infill it doesnt matter
wait what
could you clarify?
You mean measured the printing object if the z height is right ?
oh yes
sorry you replied to a different message and I got confused lol
It does matter if your Z is wrong, because even with two solid top layers they can be mashed together
Okay I got 2,29 and it should be 2
But the first layer also was not correct
How was the first layer not correct?
To height
I thought the first layer doesn’t matter after 5 layer of printing because if it is to height then after 5 layers it should be corrected also if its too low
are these 100% infill?
No
hm ok
but your Z should still be very close to actual even if your first layer isnt perfect
It was the calibration tool of the orca it have 2 or 3 infill layers
2.29mm vs 2mm is concerning
because your first layer would have to be 0.29mm too high in order for that to be true
My first layer should have 0.3mm
And the full height of the print should be 2 mm
correct
that still means your overall print will be 2mm
But it is 2.29mm
So the first layer should have 0.59mm or 0.29 mm to height
hold on let me draw something
first layer does not matter, the overall piece height should be the same regardless
changing first layer will not correct for your 0.29 heigh excess (in this situation)
Do you have any other parts you can measure Z height on?
I know what you mean but normaly one layer is squashed on the other but if the first layer should“just fall down“ because of the to height nozzle then we got a few mm more then if it is squashed in to the bed and also for the next layers
But yeah I will test this. At the moment I am printing the PA tower and in the evening I will print a 20x20x20 cube and measure it
Sounds good :)
0.2 is a whole layer for it to fall down, I find it super unlikely to adhere
oh be sure to re-enable the post processor by removing that line if you havent already
Yes I have re enabled it
So how is it possible to get so much overextension with 0.88 flow ??? Which was good in the test bevor
do not worry about this, it's a result of the pressure advance for the top surface :)
Ah okay
What's your new PA value?
So pa 0,031
Bevor i used 0,28 so not much difference
hm, indeed not too much difference
Print new test piece, let's see how it results if any
So 99,78 is the height should be 100
Okay
it being varying is odd, but maybe just a matter of the pressure advance preventing nice even layers
We will see I started the print
Another thing… maybe my motors are defect so they have more vibrations as usual and this is going to the head and print
I think very unlikely that the vibrations would result in this bad of an artifact
And I say "this bad" and it's really quite usable in my personal opinion
Hmm yes just a Thought
This was the 4th layer
This is the top layer
Top is Great but the first layers aren’t good but the first layer was good
@Helge Keck or @miklschmidt hello again I still have this issue, maybe you have an idea ?
Im confused, top layer is good?
Yes but not every print
I am thinking about to reset the complete firmware and start from the beginning with the firmware, I mean I changed the hotend changed the extruder rebuild the hotend multiple times rebuild the x y core
when the infill shows two close lines, gap, then two close lines etc. i think it could be related to a backlash-like effect in the motion system. it could be unequal or wrong belt tension, one of the motor pulley setcrew is not biting tight on the flat shaft. or something is not moving freely. I think this effect might change depending on the fill angle used in the slicer .. If you want to test this you can make some testcubes with different (print settings>infill) fill angle in slicer 0, 45, 90 and 135.
Yes
Yes
Yes
You are right the print angle effects this gaps
But where should I start ? I rebuild the xy cube complete and make sure everything moves freely
all motorpulleys have set-screw tight on the flat spot? none of the belts are too loose?
Yes
No not too lose , or I think they are not to lose
Send video of the gantry all the way back, and then pluck the belts one a time lets hear it. It's not a perfect science but it will help us
Okay wait a minute
I also have a trummeter so I can measure the Hz
I will print now test pieces with the 0, 45, 90, 135 degrees of fill angle
If the rapido can flex/move at all, as in the toolhead/carriage has any play or the carriage can be rotated a tiny amount on the linear rail I think this also is a very good theory. Because diagonal fill lines will push and pull on the rapido front on alternating direction due to nozzle drag. The nozzle will push close to the previous line, then pull away from the line (gap).
Yes an interesting second point
Now sleep time😁. I hope you find it out soon.
Haha in my case too but I can’t sleep haha I have to find it
Maybe you can help me the next days too 😄🙃
Can this be the problem ?
The linear rail is a little little bit wiggle to one side
This isnt enough to cause this, imo
You can hear it but you mean this is not enough?
Hmm what else can this cause
No, typical bearing tolerance.
But the right one have way less tolerance
But okay then we will put this at first to the side
What else can it be ?
In the print I saw everytime when X is used then I have gaps so 45, 0 and 135 degrees
Only 90 degrees always looks good
You have dimensional accuracy
XYZ all line up
Do me this,
Remove PTFE tubing. Insert filament.
Check your Rat dashboard and make sure it's at 100% flow. Mark your filament at a measured height above your extruder.
Heat extruder, and command 100mm of filament to be extruded. Measure mark on filament again and ensure it's extruding 100mm
Hopefully this makes sense
Did this 2 hours ago
Oh my bad
The orbiter was perfect
And the Sherpa was at 22 now at 22.9
But yeah the orbiter was perfect
When you printed my gcode, the file turned out well, correct? Maybe over extruded but turned out well
Don’t know for sure because some prints comes nice some bad so I would test it again can you set the flow to 0.89 and send again 😬😊
And make the square 70*70 please
Thank you for your help
Yes, i will send it later tonight because I am not home currently. You want me to make it 4 pieces? As it seems like printing 4 pieces or more (long prints) have consistently caused the problem
Yes please one with one and one with two and one with 4 if its possible 😬
I go to sleep now its enough headache for today😁
Again thank you 🙏
These are not post processed, test single cube first to see how it looks, if it looks bad I will post process it and then we compare again, if it looks good then I will post process the rest and we will continue testing
this will narrow down if it's slicer or post processor
if all look bad...
well
I'm leaning towards attempting removing the ptfe tube and trying direct feed one more time
after that...
we go nuclear
reflash and resetup
The bottom left is worse and the top right is good? If there is something loose it would have to be in front/rear direction then. (hold the nozzle and pull/push?).. The bottom left one looks like inconsistent extrusion really but only when toolhead is going in one direction.. Weird..
Just the top right looks good all others have gaps between the lines
So deactivate the post process agin ?
is this linespacing matching the top solid linewidth in slicer? or are you supposed to have 2x more lines here? indicating printer is placing a line more or less right on top of the previous line when alternating direction so that the plastic has nowere to go, nozzle pressure causes undulations/waves around the line etc..
Here should be one line too
yes, this looks like left going lines are 100% overlapping on the previous right going line in some areas since we can see the two narrow wavy lines on each side (plastic forced outside on each side of the previous line)
Yes but I don’t know if these (the red ones) are the move from left to right or from right to left
Here is the same printed part as before just a little bit clearer
The left vs right doesnt matter it was just an example. But you can not tune EM correctly with this going on.. i guess you could print a long narrow cube with only perimeters, so that all "fill" is going in the same direction as the top right cube when tuning flow/em,
Yes you are right till now this was like playing lotto at one moment it was good and the next it was bad but yeah I will test it
sounded like you were stumming around 90hz on Y belts and 80hz on lower belts? If this is a 500 size machine Then isn't that a very high belt tension? idk. i think mine plays around 75 on the lower belt and 60ish on the top belt, (i have a VC 3.1 500 hybrid)
if you have binding somewhere in the motion system it could get worse with high tension..
Yes normaly I have less tension I just tested this yesterday if it does anything
I will set the upper belts on 60Hz and the lower on 75 hz
Here I have 0,71
But it should be 0,84
(One line is 0.42)
I just had 40hz on the upper belts
Where have you measured the hz ? With the x gantry in the middle ? Or in the back ?
Is this normal ?
You have to watch with sound
I measure / compare tension with the gantry pushed to the back.
And then you have these values 😱 isn’t it way to much ?
maybee you have a belt that is rubbing on a bearing flange, if fame is not alligned then belt will often rise or lower depending on direction.
Yes i set my tension a bit too high myself as well, my gantry is a bit hard to push also, but at least it is the same in both directions. (i have hybrid so all 4 steppers rotate when i push the gantry back/forward. side to side it is a bit easier bc, then i am rotating just 2 steppers.)
If everything fails you have the option to go back to basics, (remove a toolhead to rebuild to corexy non-idex) with or without Y(hybrid) motors. But that is a serious job just to troubleshoot..
with idex it is harder to setup and tune, because you need to use the 2 y motors from the start i think.
Yes this a thing I will do if I have up haha then I will build it back
Okay
So After 4 top layers after the infill the gaps are back again
This was the 5. layer after infill
Just up and down which I just thought have no problems
Now I print your file thank you
Have you tried printing a cylinder in vase mode using same mm3/s flow. it does not show any extrusion problems there? Have you confirmed the extruder/hotend is not the issue by running a max flow test in orca using the same temperature?
Yes I reached a max flow of 25 and I am using 15 max flow
Not now
This was the Pa test tower from yesterday and the outer walls looks good
But yeah I will test It later with the cylinder and one wall
you can also go down to 10 flow cap in filament setting. just to remove as many variables as possible. and for simple testprints temperature can also be increased just to lower the viscosity / extrusion force. (it is difficult to know what the nozzle temperature really is as it is very depending on the heat transfer and proper assembled hotend)
Yes testet also with just 5 max but yeah I will test this again
Yes I can print the next prints with 255 degrees instead of 235
don' t trust the temperature in mainsail. I'm even struggling printing PLA under 230 degrees with rapido 2 plus using the uhf adapter and tungsten nozzle. and that is with 20mm3 flow limited.
Oh okay Crazy
maybee i should try to stick a termocouple down into the meltzone of my own rapido later today to see what is the temperature with my setup.. i just last week "upgraded" from rapido 1 HF plus to a rapido 2 UHF plus and have had only issuess. until i increased my temperatures a lot.
I also tested a dragon uhf hotend
But I will test other temperatures
What diameter have the nozzles ? I am thinking about to buy a pt1000 with a round mount so I can mount it between the nozzle and the uhf adapter just to measure the real temp
6mm
m6 threads
could use a m6 threaded sensor as well, just replace the nozzle with the sensor 🤔
Deactivate your post processor if the single cube looks bad, print again, if it still looks bad idk.
At the moment the 4 cubes are printing and if I come home later I will update you
How did single and double cube come out?
Or did you just go straight for 4 😁
Straight 4 😂
Understood lol
Because I left the home and I thought I can print the longest print while I’m gone
Now it is to much flow
How much did you set ?
How much did you set ?
Uhhhhh
0.89 but I can double check when I get home
This looks promising however
It's consistent
Don’t know 😄
there is a very consistent geometric pattern on these prints. could it also be the top fill that is sagging a bit the infill (gyroid?) due to high temp or too little cooling on the top layers ?
The infill is gyroid, so this is definitely likely
Temp 255, im not sure about fan. Maybe 35%
Again, gotta check what I sliced when I got home 😅
i looked at the file, it was just two top layers. I would be cool to see another attempt but with minimum 5 top layers.
bcause two top layers is in reality just a bridging flow layer + a single top layer
I'll slice and send in a few hours, not a bad idea 👍 just didnt wanna waste a bunch of filament and time :kekw:
Perfect thank you
Until we find the problem, then the filament doesn’t matter
😂
You are using 0.4mm nozzle, right?
the gcodes i looked at was for 0.4
nevermind, is saw you confirme that the other day😋
Yes 😁👍
Haha my rapido 2 wasn't so wrong anyway. I set the temp to 220 and shoved a 0.8mm probe all the way down to the inside tip of the nozzle. (inside the molten plastic). it was actually super stable and only changed max 0.2degree over a minute.
That is really interesting, and do you start the fan ?
no, didnt think of that.. this was just to check if the temperature reported was correct.
Okay even with the max flow of 3 I got holes / gaps
Hmm maybe the motion system is not the problem because if I go down with the speed the result should be better even if i go down from 15 to 3 max flow 🤔
I also feed the filament by hand directly to the extruder here
There has to be something wrong with commanded values
We have verified correct X, Y, Z, and E travel
So the machine itself is moving the correct distance
Now is it being commanded the correct extrusion amount
Based how with my sliced files you get no gaps
Over-extrusion, sure, but not gaps
Maybe the overextension hides the gaps
I don’t think the slicer have the problem because I use it also for my prusas and bambulabs
ok here is 0.89 flow and 4 top wall
Thank you
It is still overextruded but still no gaps 🤔
Very very odd
would you like less flow?
Yes please maybe 2% less
And maybe just 50x50
so I can look at it before I go to bed haha
Thank you
this looks good and normal
other than maybe SLIGHT overextrusion
but your extrusion is consistent
Yes think so too
I know you said you use this on your bambu... but man it's looking like you just need prusaslicer with a default ratrig profile 😂
I just tried this 😂
If this next one works I'm just sending you my prusaslicer config file and never ever change anything on it ever :kekw:
Oh hell yes
If this works
Im going crazy
ok if this single one works, final test is to print 4. because it's done gaps everytime you've done a long print
if the 4 print works... I'd say it's clear and any artifacts after that is just slicer tuning
Oh yeah
Still overextrusion maybe 2% more less
Can you tell a difference between this and the last one
like is flow working lol
I think yes but it is hard to tell but it is very odd normaly the flow between orca and Prusa should be the same
Looks way better can you now make 4 pieces please 😍🤯
0.85 flow. 25% infill, 4 cubes
Tank you
wait
previous had 2 top layers, this has 4
And this one is with 85 flow or ?
yessir
Perfect
So I think we have to less top layers because of the longer layertime I think the cooling goes down for the overhang / first layer after infill
Maybe I accidentally uploaded the 2 layer one again... 🙄 This can also be solved by dropping the temp, or increasing fan speed.
I'll send you the config file. Looks like it's a consistent extrusion and things are coming out well
Yes but I don’t want to change any values
I just want to see if it can be printed without the gaps
If we prove that it works then I will start to change the values
There's no gaps in the one above?
Don’t see one but not clear because of the uneven top layer
Hm
Ok I send one with 4 top layers
Thank you 🙏
I'll also drop the temp and up fan a wee bit
Thank you
So … gaps again
You changed anything in the settings or ?
Hmm
I changed temp and fan speed
That may be causing under extrusion
Oh very minor gaps
But not on all of these 4
I strongly feel like your problem lies in temp/fan/flow rate
I wont be near my computer until sunday but I can maybe manually adjust the hcode for you to do again
Okay at the moment I will test with orca slicer again but other fan speed and temp
Do you know which settings you are used before ?
Before was 15% fan and 255 temp
0.85 flow
25% infill
4 top 2 bottom
2 walls
Alternatively
You can print my gcode again, and when the fan turns on, go into RATOS and turn the fan off and the temp up to 255 and that should be permanent
Yes at the moment I try orca with 10% fan and 255 degrees
Okay the Prusa slicer can not be the solution
Because I now tested Prusa slicer with standard settings (also 15% fan and 255 temp and 0.85 flow)
I only set the top layer to 6 and after the 4th layer (top layer) the gaps come back again
I disagree
BUT
buuuuuttttt
😱
What comes now
Haha
You said it does after 4 layers
6 is kinda crazy
Yes
Though it should work with 6
I really think that's excessive
What do you mean
I think it just means you need to run 4 top layers 😂
😂
If you need more strength, more walls, or more infill
But this can’t be the solution 😂😂
But 6, may be preventing excess filament from expanding into the infill like you explained before
100% infill has always caused issues
And doing 6 solid top layers is similar
Yes but why I mean this isn’t normal
Hmm
Ok one more test
60% fan
Tonight u will print a print with minimum speed so acc to 200 for all max flow 1 and jerk 0,5 for all
Oh
Yes I am testing at the moment 80%
Ahh ok
Because im thinking it could be partly dumping so much heat into the top layers
So I can say if its the mechanical or not because if it prints so fucking slowly it should look waaay better
Yes maybe
In 10 min we knew mor
More
KNOWLEDGE JULIAN KNOWLEDGE
Okay the first test looks great
Just look in the middle the other is warping 😂
I think we are on to something
Yes I think / hope too
I should go to sleep haha but I can’t
😂
maybe 50% fan?
No sleep, must science
(but go to bed if you need lmao)
I test now less temperature (225) and 60% fan
👁️👄👁️
Really odd
Temp is significant drop but im here for it
Less temperature and Moore fan looks now like overextending
Overextruding
That is odd. Still at 0.85 flow?
But we will see the result in a few minutes
Ah I see I used the false flow
I think we come closer
Little Little gaps
Slightly higher temp
Or more flow
But you're nailing it
If it's not curling the fan speed is good
What do you mean with curling ?
Warping :)
Ah okay
So
This was with 225 and 60 % fan speed
More temp
You went more down :kekw:
Less temp = less flow
More temp more flow
Compromise: 240c
This looks good though
Especially with ABS
225c is a little on the cold end
Especially when you're trying to push around 30mm^3/s
But even on standard/older printers
250c is the average
Okay now I print with 240 but I go to bed and write tomorrow morning
I have 3 pieces
One very fast
One very slow
And one normal
Look forward to it! Nice work, making progress again :)
Thank you vor your help
I hope so 🤞 (what I think is … maybe the rapido 2 UHF needs more speed for the printing so maybe without the UHF it is better because also the dragon hotend I tested have the UHF and to compromise the UHF I need less temperature and more fan … but just a thought) and now good night I will update you tomorrow
And thank you again 👍
Hello again… so not what we thought …
This was very very slow (50mm/s speed for everything and 1 jerk for everything and 500mm/s)
And it looks perfect … this is the result I want
This was fast (5000mm/s)
Looks okay also without gaps
And here is the „normal“ I am printing with every time this one have gaps again
At the moment I print these again just with the change that it prints by object and not by layer
Another interesting thing is that also the parts from Ratrig have this problem …
This is the plate between the x and y Motor just saw this last week while I am rebuilding the xy cube
I wouldn't worry too much about ratrigs parts
I think however, we're changing a little too many variables at once to get good conclusions
(at least im getting confused now lol)
Lets do this:
normal speed
240c
60% fan
0.9 flow
Now the surface quality is good on this
With minor gaps
These gaps are classic underextrusion
So we bump the flow a little bit back up from before
I wanna reiterate though that I think we are proving this is not a printer issue (as your printer has followed commanded values exactly).
We are simply just at a difficult filament tuning stage
And ABS is not the easiest to print with
Yes if I know this for sure than I am a little bit happier because then I have a direction where too look at
Do you have any idea how I can test if the printer is good
Will test this later if I got home
Yes at my Bambu and Prusa I don’t have problems with abs so I thought it is as easy as on these machines
You already have.
You have tested:
Dimensional accuracy ✅
Extrusion accuracy ✅
Which are the 2 things important to a printer. You havent had any errors, this is genuinely just filament tuning.
True but the bambu is self tuning and the prusa is slower... Different beasts!
At the moment I print these settings but with the same flow because the print I did today (object by object) was perfect
I just speed up a little bit the walls and something
We will see in 8 min 😁
So this was the result of the normal speed from the object by object thing
And this is same temp same fan but just a little bit faster in the settings
Now I try the exact same with 260 degrees
Same settings just 260 degrees
Soooo
240 degrees 1% more flow 60% fan
And I have a usable result
Maybe 1% more flow and then
I will start the big test over night 😂
Fingers crossed
I don’t know why but the 5th top layer looks perfect and the 6th have gaps
I changed the Acceleration for the toppest layer to 3000 like the 5th layer in the hope it looks the same but no I got more gaps then before 😂👍
And I also set 1% more flow
But yeah more gaps
What happened between this test
And this
I only changed the acc of the top layer to the same value as the massive infill acc
So this one was again with the same acc as massive infill but I change the line with to 0.4 for the top layer instead of 0,42
I can’t explain this to me why does the fan changes this result
Okay don’t think we have it
I printed these with the same settings as this one
The walls are good so I think we can really say that the mechanic of the printer is good
I mean the layertime is much longer on these prints
I agree, I think the mechanics are good
(also you look very close on your first layer, this wont affect top tho lol)
Yes the first layer is rubbish at the moment but I want at first to get the top layer good and as you say this affect not the top so yeah
I think I will give it a try to reset the complete firmware
Hmm
Couldnt hurt
Also top layer should be 0.45 not 0.42/0.4?
Or am I mistaken?
As I know 0.4 is the best because we also have a 0.4 mm nozzle the other values are possible too but the best should be 0.4 is what I know
This.... This may be something
Look what I found on this CNC kitchen video
From most of what I've seen, (including default settings) 120-150% is common for extrusion width.
CNC Kitchen
YouTube
Extrusion Width - The magic parameter for strong 3D prints?
Start your Squarespace free trial today at http://www.squarespace.com/cnckitchen and use code CNCKITCHEN to get 10% off your first purchase.
Extrusion width defines how wide the lines of extruded material are. Higher values require more pressure to squeeze the molten filament out of the nozzle that also presses the layers together. I investigat...
Watch if you feel so inclined :)
Could we try this:
240c
60% fan
0.9 flow
2 walls
6 top layers
Line width for ALL layers 0.45
I will try this later
Thanks for this 👍
Now I am printing different models
- 0.48 layer lines
- 0.45 layer lines
-0.42 layer lines
- 0.4 layer lines
I have a similar issue: https://discord.com/channels/582187371529764864/1315555504558182410
but not yet found a solution. I suspect it is related to the mesh (although I have only .15 deviation) as this usually only ocures >7mm in z
Yes looks like the same
To exclude this, an object must have at least 1 layer infill then it is not mesh related
I am printing 50x50x2,3mm cubes to test this
the prints have all multiple layers of infill
Then it have nothing to do with the mesh
my though is atm that there is maybe some sort of either phase out of the mesh or maybe bi-metal effect after certain z
I don’t think so because I got perfect first layers and also I have an titanium tube
And also I got perfect 1 layers oder 400x400
But the top is trash
that is interesting
is it just the top layer or also top -1?
on mine top-1 is perfect and top shit
I bring now my child to bed and then I will write again and start testprints again
Sweet, would love to see the results! Thanks :)
So
Yes top -1 looks good but sometimes I see just a little gap but I would say 90% the top -1 looks good
And if you reduce the thickness to I.e 5mm the top surface is not overextended?
What do you mean ? Sorry don’t understand
In my case I observe the overextrusion pattern usually if z > 7mm
No these prints are just 3.4mm height
RR tech support claims this is warping but for me I can exclude that
Yes this is not warping 100% not
Prusaslicer 2.9?
Your orbiter filament path is aligned I guess?
I use orca slicer and Prusa tested both
Oh yes tested multiple times haha
Very interesting that we have different setups but experience the same
Oh yes what machine do you have
2x 400 VC4 idex
Both have the issue
But sorry to say but I am happy I am not alone haha
Hmm okay
But no ti tube
Hmm have you already re installed the firmware ?
No just updated to current
Okay
I will try it now
I can’t flash the board 🤔 it says it falsh the board but then it is again on the false firmware
At first I will go on
So with everything default just the flow of the Ratrig abs profile to 0.93 (which I used in orca before)
Minimalistic gaps
Now I make IS and put the fan to 30-50%
Okay it gets worse
Now I just try the settings from Bambu
Tomorrow I will see the result
Can you print 50x50x2,3mm cubes so we can see how does these look
Does this have pressure advance or no?
These are 100x100x2,9 that look great - just a bit too much overlap
Yesterday exactly same settings but 8.8mm height of top layer and no warping at all - was perfectly flat on bed
Today same settings and part just 6.8mm height of top layer and moved it 2cm to the back as the bed mesh (.15deviation in total) has on the front the high point. Cannot show this one better as it is still printing. Top layer is perfect
This is why I say ai have absolutely no clue 😂
For my two VC4s I can tell it is somehow correlated to height of the top solid infill layer and maybe to positioning of the part
But I am far away of narrowing down the cause
BTW all PLA
@helge yes
Ah okay then I think you have a different problem
Another part same settings but random underextrusion in one corner (also no warping)
Yes could be. Anyway, I‘ll follow this thread. Sorry that I am not really a help
Yes but my problem is not in one corner my problem is random in the mid of a print and just gaps not completely underextrusion
No problem we are here to write and look if we can help each other 👍
Do you have the same experience with a different material/brand and if it is idex also with T1?
Yes tested Petg and ASA and tool 1 also
And same gcode on different printer comes out perfect?
Don’t know
Don’t find anyone who can print it for me 😂
And with slightly adjusted settings on another brand?
You can send it to me I can print it
But the other one is really misaligned 😁
But please PLA settings
Okay I will make later one with pla and send it to you
Thank you very much this shows 100% if it is printer related or software
This was the settings from Bambu and till now no gaps I will print now the longer print which always have this problem 🤞
I think despite all this that the problem is mechanical because it is so irregular. And if I print very slowly it’s gone.
Possibly the belt tension is not correct or the motors have a problem
After the tests with pla later I think I would go back to hybrid and try then
Okay now I have a print with pla with the same result
Don’t look at the edge I had a too high travel speed and that’s why I have a few layer offset
This is 1h and 16 minutes
43g of filament
Can you print this ?
Please
There is a "phase out" from the mesh. Its referred to as fade_start and fade_end
[bed_mesh]
horizontal_move_z: 2
mesh_min: 30,30
mesh_max:470,450
probe_count: 40,40
fade_start: 1.0
fade_end: 10.0
mesh_pps: 2,2
algorithm: bicubic
bicubic_tension: .2
What is the difference between relative extrusion on and off ?
Back to hybrid
Oh fuck yes it looks very very good
Now I start the print which always fails 😂
What was the result?
I print now with 1% less flow
But looks really good I think
This was with 94% and the other (the picture before) was 97% now I print with 96%
And I got a huge better speed
100% fan this thing is screaming 😂
You have the wholes too 🤔
That is exactly my error
And on hybrid gone?
At the moment the last test is printing
Is ready in about 1 hour
So this is the result not as good as my bambu but usable
But yeah it is not as good as my bambu or xl
Can you send me the stl?
Yes of course
I will send you later
Till now I got good results maybe just a settings thing now for the top layer but yeah I can use this machine for orders finally. 🤞
And my IS is MzV and ZV so yeah I think I don’t will go back to Idex for a time 😁
Next successful print
Now I print 10 of these in one print
Think its really working now 🥰
beautiful prints!
So the final test if this prints without an error then I would say it is solved
But if I go back to Idex I don’t know if it comes back 😩🤔
So perfect print
I think I can say I can finally use this machine and love it
Nice:chefkiss: i also am going to print the Chonk parts as well soon. But the big parts are scary. What material u used? Did it end up without warp?
This one was ABS but it was just to test the printer the real part I will use, I will print out of PC Fibr20 or ASA CF15
Amazing to print this big in ABS wihout warp. When you slice the big bottom plate with some sort of CF filament, doses the slicer calcualte less than 1kg will be used? when i sliced for PET-CF, 25% gyroid and 4 walls it came out scary close to 1kg. dont remember bu tit was like 996g or something. What are the strength settings you use or recommend?
Yeah you are right with PC Fibr20 I need 1051g so I need a spoolchange 😩 or I just glue the end with the new roll together with the sunlu tool
Yes I am using the same 25% infill gyroid and 4 walls
most exiting filament change after emptying a whole expensive roll on a part. Be carefull with the splicer method on such brittle filament, the splice might snap in bowden before it even reaches the hotend. Perhaps better is to stay close and monitor the filament transition, then you could just push the next filament behind the other until it is grabbed by the extrudergears.
Ah yes this is also a method 😁👍
Okay I print it out of ASA CF because I have 2,5kg rolls 😁
How is your printer working ? Do you found anything ?
So what was the problem in the end?
I don’t know
After Build it back to one head it works perfectly
I don’t change anything else
Sent you a dm