what is the role of guilt or shame in putting that shit on?
I guess another very meta navel gazey msg post with just enough of a kernel of personal utility to me to not go in discussion:
I was reflecting on the most recent fits I've posted and realized I feel irl very confident and happy wearing what is basically a straight fit high rise version of 2013 slp, but feel genuinely and deeply ashamed whenever I post a fit like that in the discord. And I think maybe there's something to the whole shame or guilt thing I haven't considered before.
Maybe this is all just a very academic way to say "please don't make me buy paraboots mfad I think my harness wyatts look cool with bootcuts!" but I suppose it got me thinking - is shame a productive emotion when it comes to putting that shit on? And is it okay to have "guilty pleasures" that you're ashamed of but like anyways? Is it even possible to have a guilty pleasure (or conversely, to dress without shame) in the context of something as necessarily social as fashion?
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I don't think it's productive to worry about putting clothes on that you love, because some internet strangers might disagree.
Unless it's something really polarising in a larger social context, like a fedora
I think my personal feelings about my little elf boots are less actually the thing I care about and more my way in to thinking about that second thought
Where's that meme about someone somewhere always thinking that your fit is mid regardless of what it is?
(You're absolutely allowed to like what you like)
Like when does something pass from "being yourself" into something bigger socially, where is the line drawn, when does it go from a quantitative change to a qualitative one
(cg's comment about the fedora is actually very clarifying for what my question actually is lmao so thank you)
I think that’s just the field of sociology
I think at a point you move from guilt/shame to confidence. I'd encourage you to just fully find joy in the shit you put on and not feel guilty about it at all.
Imo none of your fits have felt polarizing or have like, challenged me, I guess? There's a lot of room for variation in MFAD, way more than reddit "allowed" tbh. Might just be an issue of perception?
Aight I looked at your fits. You look good. Don’t worry about it
Unfortunately this is the thing I care more about than my actual fits, and unfortunately it is also way too big to answer in a discord thread
Social interactions are inherently performative
But they also lack context without the identity of those interacting
We wouldn't say to mold your personality to whatever you think fits the person you're interacting with / greater society
We know why that doesn't work
I don't think fits are any different in that sense
Code switch based on context sure, but you are the context too
That last part is I think a thing I'm gonna need to rotate in my brain for a while!
Id reframe how you see MFAD. It's just a group of fashion enthusiasts. You don't need to dress identical to "fit in".
The bit about guilt and shame seems like a personal hiccup
I think it's partially a personal hiccup for sure lmao
I also think its like, perfectly fine if you dress that way irl and feel good about it! I think the difference you encounter when wearing it IRL vs posting those same fits to MFAD is that this is a very specific, concentrated group of hobbyists --which most people aren't. Balancing those two spaces can be difficult, and I wonder if that is where some of that shame is coming from (though that could just be an assumption on my end so feel free to disregard haha)
I think that difference is the more interesting question I've accidentally stumbled backwards into lol
Also your questions at the end of the post are really good but I don't have like 3 days to be sat here and sending you giant blocks of text so 😭 I just appreciate you posing them, they're very thought-provoking!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In-group_and_out-group
In many ways you're probably internalising negative thoughts because you perceive you're "out" of MFAD culture. When you're not, as mentioned on my above comment.
Plus you might unconsciously be viewing things as distinct. When in reality we're all part of, or have, multiple identities or groups we're part of
In-group and out-group
In sociology and social psychology, an in-group is a social group to which a person psychologically identifies as being a member. By contrast, an out-group is a social group with which an individual does not identify. People may for example identify with their peer group, family, community, sports team, political party, gender, sexual orientatio...
I’m newer here but one of the things I really like about the discord vs reddit is the variety in style - I often find myself having a greater appreciation for the fits that aren’t something I would wear or even be exposed to normally. That’s not universal but especially with the smaller community and the fact that I’d say the discord is more fashion enthusiasts vs the reddit which started there but has gradually become a place for anyone with even a surface level interest in fashion (not trying to gatekeep I promise), there’s much more room to experiment.
i think mfad particularly values fashion as a form of self-expression but if anything then your own fullfillment carries more weight
While there’s certainly a “house style” so to speak, I think a lot of others agree that generally the discord is more likely to appreciate things outside of that, even if there aren’t necessarily others posting or wearing something similar.
Style development should be about getting better at executing the things that most represent you and your desired vision of yourself
damn we should throw this in totd :xd:
More than anything it is important that you feel like you or the you that you want to be
I regrettably need to actually do my job now but I'm gonna be meditating on a lot of this I think, but what everyone's saying reminds me a lot of a style evolution thread (I think walker's, and I think from before the discord) that really stuck with me where the gist was basically "I experimented a bunch, but eventually just came back to a lot of stuff I liked before but I got better at doing it"
tbf irl you're still dressing for self-expression. i think it's different in the sense that mfad encourages you to think more deeply for yourself and that's inherently challenging
like i get compliments pretty consistently irl now but im sure if i feel like leveling up i could just ask the discord and get exactly what i need to hear
eg https://discord.com/channels/1116793467654381685/1171873342043730023/1171873342043730023
https://discord.com/channels/1116793467654381685/1130222370179793076/1130222370179793076
(okay really quick and then I'm gonna work for real, those linked threads are incredible just skimming them quickly is tremendously inspiring)
i went through a lot of those feelings you described leading up to posting this fit https://discord.com/channels/1116793467654381685/1116800072093532191/1211686025324269598
there's a lot more detail in the thread but the light bulb moment was that while i liked fashion, i found the act of wearing clothing frustrating largely because i was dressing for others and made a lot of unwise choices in response
also, perhaps due to the fact that i deal with latent guilt and shame in other contexts that are slightly more difficult to unpack, i think it's a little easier to view fashion as an individual choice with individual consequences. am i really hurting anyone by wearing crocs (for example)? (this is short sighted see below)
Don't let MFA browbeat you into dressing like them fr though. I mean one of those threads is mine and my style is mostly not MFA's house style (theres some overlap but overall its not super represented here). Still got banger advice that really helped me. Basically if it makes you feel happy thats priority #1.
I think the reacts can be rough at times on this discord, as someone who has struggled with being confident in fits that don't get a ton of reacts. NGL the truth is you can easily get like 10+ more reacts just by putting effort into your photo and doing nothing to change the fit. Otherwise if you aren't the house style you are mostly going to get less reacts. I'm not saying to completely ignore them, because they can be a barometer for if a fit is a brick or good or not obviously, and they can be useful for self reflection and growth in personal style. But also don't let them get to you, as that just has the opposite effect of what you want.
Also abuse the fact there are a lot of people who are good at dressing period, regardless of the style, and abuse #questions-and-advice and #styling-suggestions
Thoughts about posting slp in mfad aside, I do think shame can be a productive feeling when dressing or exploring style generally. Although I'm an advocate for hedonism and enjoying guilty pleasures, a kernel of shame at the heart of a greater sense of self-restraint can be a useful tool when putting that shit on. Being a bit too self indulgent with layers, accessories, colors, etc can tip a cool fit over into costume territory which lends itself toward that whole "who am i dressing for" discussion higher up in this thread.
That being said, there are like a billion examples of folks dressing with zero shame and looking amazing. Whether it's a style that's very grandiose or gaudy, loud and brightly colored, or even obviously anachronistic, some ppl really pull that shit off and it still comes across as genuine or authentic because nobody is doing it quite like them.
"Shame" feels like a very weird word to use here but I appreciate it. I've been thinking a lot about "wearability" bc I don't need to be totally fitted to go to petsmart to grab dog food. So this is a new angle on it for me. Thanks
I do
If I'm not mogging the Petsmart why even live
i would like to amend a point made here - one caveat to the "personal expression doesn't hurt anyone" is when it gets into a place of cultural appropriation or mockery and for the sake of not starting up anything I'll link this https://discord.com/channels/1116793467654381685/1201934856741982208
don't get me wrong I've mogged plenty of Targets in my time but I don't always need to. It can be nice to just throw some clothes on that look nice but it's really a "fit". I also WFH and live in the suburbs so even wearing shoes that aren't onclouds makes me stick out a lot
Wrt wearability, I think beyond exceptional cases, wearability is purely about your psychological comfort rather than anything else
Take my words with grains of salt, as I'm in a similar moment of style discovery and dont think I've found my strides, but I will echo the sentiment of "who am I dressing for", for me, a criteria of a fit is that it be something I would actually feel comfortable wearing through the day for whatever circumstance. as soon as it feels like I'm putting on a look for internet reactions, i feel very out of balance. thats where I personally draw a boundary
It mostly depends on my mood tho. I'm not beyond being the main character, but for example sometimes my wife doesn't want me to be and we just bum it running errands. And I don't wanna mog my wife lmao
There’s an in group out group thing like nay referenced about not standing out, but in almost all situations it doesn’t change anything to stand out
It’s purely down to how you personally feel about it
I think it just comes down to what bishop says. In the opposite side of things I feel like so many people put down dressing to stand out. Old /r/MFA was about that, theres plenty of influencers about that, plenty of people about that. Its noise, if you wanna stand out and have all eyes on you thats fine. Do it. Don't let insecure people limit you.
Some days I just don't want to put as much energy into being "that guy". Passing by only strangers in stores is the lowest stakes form of that ofc
feeling very psychologically comfortable not owning paraboots
honestly i think part of pulling it off comes with repetition - wearing things independent of the potential social consequences until it becomes instinctive or more comfortable
just get a haircut that is extremely unique that everyone comments on
you get used to it real quick
granted my method of exploration in clothes and finding a personal style is basically exposure therapy - wearing the most loud thing, recognizing the world didn't end, and then being able to pull it back after. that is a privileged view to have given certain parts of the world presently but it works for me, a stubborn human being lol
yes absolutely, once you push the boundaries a bit those just become your new boundaries
I definitely don't want to come across like Old MFA and folks who feel that advice that isn't "buy these plain boring clothes to look 'not bad'" is "dangerous (have literally seen people say advice for wide fit pants is "dangerous" lmao). I've just been exploring the balance between getting fitted and my personal energy and psychological comfort. Especially since discord is such a different format for posting fits than reddit was.
I think as always people are writing paragraphs and bishop showed up and mogged us all with a single sentence that expresses the idea better than everything else.
you can just say you liked his message without saying it's better than other messages
I've accepted that I probably won't become an Ethan, Charlie, Smiles, etc. folks who really send it what feels like all the time. So I've been exploring my own "boring American style" space a lot more and the silly nuance in my small world
I think a lot about self expression so I have really crystallized my feelings on this in a lot of areas
Just for the record, I absolutely love when people share their style journey, and its so useful for my own, so thanks to everyone who has shared like that 🙂
100% this, I definitely don't dress like a lot of folks here but there's still plenty of really good advice, and most everyone is super chill
I'm taking a brief break to catch up on all of this, thank you everyone for the serious and earnest thoughts about all of this, I really do think even just seeing the conversation has sort of started to rejig my approach to engaging here
(also goofy personal thing re: sal's comment at the very start about posting slp in mfad I've been evolving out of it slowly over years but it's gonna stay slow until I can afford ann backlaces lmao)
Backlaces are cheaper than ever, I'll ping u next time i find a decent pair
a 2nd street here in philly had nearly new ones for like 400
Holy shit that's so cheap wtf
*I should clarify for my interlocutors cheap for these specific shoes I'm not a maniac
what size/style do u like
I think at the same time, there's nothing inherently wrong with feeling conflicted over self-expression. There's an attitude, especially amongst men, that insecurity is a character flaw that needs to be purged before you can enjoy anything, rather than something that's often forced on us by society. I personally wear a style that often gets made fun of (2013-esque bizcaz) and often get torn up over the question of whether I'm wearing it because I genuinely prefer it, or because I'm stubborn and refuse to evolve. I think it's fine to never have an answer to that question though, self-expression should be about discovering who you are, not something that's reserved for people who already know it.
Teenage Gent has a great post on his blog somewhere about that, really enjoyed it. Will have to try and dig it up
ah, here we go: https://alittlebitofrest.com/2024/02/19/what-i-wear-on-dates/
I'm a 43 in most other stuff I wear and mostly into the henrica but idk if they go that big? I like the separate heel on them and the louise more either way
And piejamas comment feels relevant to my last Big Thought Question, about like stagnation, and somehow realizing never having an answer to that is an option feels like a revelation
you'll want a size 42 which they definitely make, because ann boots like this tend to run a size large
Ty sal 🖤 I'm gonna keep my eyes peeled
And to focus back on the actual thread that article of Ethan's absolutely rips
I feel like generally this whole questions thread is very far afield from what I thought I was asking about, in a way that's much better than what I thought I was asking about, and I can actively feel it rewiring a couple neurons
I feel you. It’s easy to say, ignore the chaff and focus on what you like, but harder to do in practice. For me, luckily my shame at throwing out perfectly good slim jeans is way stronger than my shame at being unfashionable. (My shame at looking too much like the Patagonia vest and skinny jeans tech uniform is pretty strong tho)
That is the most difficult moment, when you're trying hard to not feel ashamed of your skinny jeans and then you see them worn by someone you'd really rather not be associated with
There’s a level of “are skinny jeans something that speaks to you or just something you’ve been doing for a long time and it’s hard to change?”
I think mfa rails against skinny jeans because most of the people who come here holding onto them are just fighting against the idea that what they learned to be true x years ago wasn’t “true” in that way and the reality of fashion and expressing yourself is that it isn’t found in guides it’s found in experimentation and exploration
i think this was a good comment that resonated with me.
I’ve noticed with a lot of things like learning an instrument, there’s a sort of “sweet spot” where you are practicing something that is at the edge (or often, beyond) your current abilities. It’s a bit uncomfortable, but that zone can be where the greatest “gains” are made. To a large extent, that feeling never goes away but instead, becomes part of the process. I wonder sometimes if this carries over to fashion - I think for me, it sometimes can. Not saying that fashion / personal expression has to always be challenging, but I also don’t think it’s a problem that can be “solved”, and suddenly you never feel anxiety about it. It’s also a nice way to help you feel like you’re moving forward on your fashion journey, whatever that means to you
Like piejamas said, knowing the “true self” isn’t necessary, I think it’s about approaching your desired image as much as you can and sometimes just pushing out in different directions is how you find that
I think there's another interesting question of when to give up on trying something new, I remember switching my wardrobe over to more on-trend stuff for like a year, and growing more frustrated because my taste wasn't evolving in the direction it was "supposed" to in my mind
There's a thin line between challenging yourself and forcing it
I think that’s why we so often encourage looking for inspiration first, that part is free and doesn’t commit you to anything, it’s the safest way to explore
And if you find something that you’re like “wow that’s so cool but I don’t think I could pull it off” those are huge potential north stars to work towards
i'm on the opposite side, as someone for whom slim fit was not accessible physically but went through some disordered thinking/behavior to force it seeing it as a status of some sort
the bandwagon effect and sunk cost fallacies are real and difficult hurdles to overcome, and for me it's something i never thought critically about until being on mfa, talking shit and posting fit, then wondering why all my slim fit fits weren't hitting, then wondering what i actually liked in response
I think the other thing to bear in mind is that the fashion community is always self-selecting for people who are never 100% happy with their wardrobe and enjoy the process of change. For any given era, there are plenty of people who join, find a wardrobe they're happy with and leave. There's nothing wrong with finding yourself in either group