Appropriation vs Appreciation - Topic of the day 2/10/25
Fashion takes inspiration from and incorporates a wide variety of references and cultures. Is there a place you'd draw the line, where fashion has gone too far? Or is it more complicated than that?
163 Replies
i posted these hakamas by needles. are they appropriation and fair to wear if i style em like needles
Run it back
Goros and other makers of Native American jewelry that aren't indigenous nor give back to the indigenous community
happy to have this conversation but remember to be respectful and considerate
i have a 100% hit rate on ana sleep dart, do not test my aim
ive been cranking 90s since before you were born son
it's appropriation if you brick
i think bode are an example of appropriation universally
My rule is if I have to think about whether it’s okay for me, a white guy, to wear a thing for longer than three seconds I don’t wear that thing
you gonna zzzz me???
Purdueface
I think there are different standards to this based on "making money with" and "personal enjoyment".
For example I think wearing native american jewelry as a white person is fine (exceptions always apply) but producing it and making money off of it is def not.
with my hawk 2a rifle as well
i have gifted jewelry that comes from different cultures / experiences from my own but personally id never go out and buy it myself
i also do not think cultural appropriation is exclusively a white thing, and also difficult to talk about on the internet because the physicality of it is a major component imo
I know the most (but not much) about native jewelry. I try to buy from places where the makers are native, items are vintage, or in some other way proceeds get back to the community. Places like Red Rabbit Trading Co. still make me feel a bit odd.
afaik they simply make jewelry in that style and don't actually mention Native Americans on their site at all and instead opt for "In the American Southwest style prior to the 1950s".
But damn their stuff is cool
this but actually from my pov
ya i was being genuine lmao
Brands like RL are also sus a lot of the time. They released a collection that closely partners with native artists and such, but I don't think any of the clothes are for me
I think cultural appropriation is a very context dependent thing. It usually involves some degree of marginalisation of the community that has their stuff appropriated.
agreed, a nuance that is very rarely found online lol
maybe instead of context id say like, geographical
I think the causal relationship flows both ways with this though
If you’re appropriating and the vibes are off you brick because of that
who tf untimed you out
im just terminally in humanities academia and use context for everything :xd:
to get a fit off using aesthetic cues from a culture not your own it requires an understanding of that culture, inherently. but also you can look mega goofy as a "culture appreciator" too so idk be careful ig
If i see a white dude decked out in indigenous american jewelry tho I am guaranteed to crack a "just back from the trading post" dig tho fwiw
I believe it's also possible to appropriate "your own culture" looking at u Japanese breakfast
interesting, yeah. my native friend really liked and wanted to support that collection so she did. i thought so many of the designs would be impossible for me to wear as a white person (nor did i really like them) but one must assume that in the Business of Fashion™️ that widespread adoption is anticipated by the execs in boardrooms dreaming up these kinds of collaborations
i like tremaine emory's take on it paraphrased. If you're going to wear something that could be appropriation that's fine but you need to understand the struggles and implications of those things. If you understand that and are willing to engage with that at that level you're meeting an absolute bare minimum.
an implication there being "hey maybe sometimes you won't coopt that thing (eg: me buying hakamas) because you understand the implication therein of the garm instead of being a dickhead about it"
Their stuff is cool because it 100% dupes the og designs. It very much gives me the ick.
Especially when they are being sold through high end outlets like Brycelands for prices that would keep a native artist afloat.
Be excited to learn, just like everything, fashion is better when it's diverse. Try to understand the implication of the references (is it cultural? religious? representative of a struggle you may not be familiar with?). Doing research will help you recognize if something is inappropriate to wear.
And listen to people who understand it better than you. No you are not an "expert" after 5 google searches.
Oh and 100% fuck the brands recreating cultural garments/jewelry but whitewashing them.
tag urself i'm top right
pov u hated the superbowl halftime show
yeah there's different icks with a lot of them. I've mentioned Chipeta Trading before and while they only sell vintage actually native-made jewelry and the proceeds all go back to various programs, the schtick is basically a white dude in Santa Fe trying to get other white folks to become "collectors" and spend $2k on jewelry they probably shouldn't wear
Chipeta Trading Company (@chipetatrading) • Instagram profile
29K Followers, 2,269 Following, 625 Posts - See Instagram photos and videos from Chipeta Trading Company (@chipetatrading)
Sort of carrying on the convo that @gv had with me on the off white discussion: https://discord.com/channels/1116793467654381685/1337105530073911369/1337437645894193245
i definitely think there is a fine line you can cross even if youre upfront about the influences you’ve used / are aware of. I just sometimes dont understand how to approach those things.
I really like keffiyehs, and what they stand for culturally. I also like what brands like undercover and acronym have done with the style but many can see that as removing meaning of what they stand for. Would it be worse to wear a traditional keffiyeh, made by locals, or to wear one made for non-Palestinians to wear?
My stance is just “i wont wear one but i admire it” to be clear
Oh its this conversation again.
But its just a thought i had about them
Tabis are cultural appropriation
One of my Palestinian friends wanted to get me and him matching ones aswell but i wasnt sure if it was cool tbh
You put those folks in internment camps AND stole their shoes smh
I don't think Margiela is American
Margiela not American
I get the hang-up, but non-Palestinians wearing keiffyeh is kinda explicitly promoted and has been for a while tbh. A statement of "you cannot kill our culture" yk?
But I'm honestly just goofing. People are wildly inconsistent about this stuff
It is genuinely hard to find native artists doing old school south west / old pawn style. Whirling log do, but they are expensive. I've gotten rings / pendants through gallery stores that have named artists attached but most older artists have very little online presence.
Thats good to know , tried to not come across as ignorant so I appreciate the awnser honestly
While I agree with everything about understanding cultures, I think there's a different angle. It's offensive in a different way from appropriation, when the discourse gets to the level of siloing off everyday clothing etc. from non western cultures. Suggesting there's some huge hurdle to wearing anything as an outsider. Implying salwar kameez or wafuku has special meaning while a suit or jeans is a universal cultural blank slate. Is kinda like, orientalism. Not a fan.
I honestly think that's not a bad thing that they don't have a large online presence. Relates back to the geographical points seth was making
Generally, yeah. But theres some interesting edge cases that got brought up last time. For instance most Japanese peopledon't seem to t find it at all offensive westerners wearing Kimonos etc. But Japanese-Americans could well feel different about people wearing stuff they were berated for in America.
@SmittyW spit it out bro
Isn't it moreso just that westernization and a history of colonialism have made jeans and suits into commonly worn items throughout the world
White american here, I really want to feel like I at least have a grasp of this topic but I find it incredibly difficult. Is ther any writeup or something that would actually help me understand this?
I should wear them all the time as take back from imperialism
I also think people need to get more comfortable with just saying a fit sucks too tbh
Yup sometimes the same happens with Indian Americans. But I don't fall on that side, I want people to wear Indian clothes if anything
Not arguing for extra barriers but I don't think I agree with the examples contrasted
thats consistent with my experience as first gen korean immigrant
No, this is the sort of thing that varies wildly based on the context, cultures, and history. There's not really a cheat sheet
Designers should steal more esoteric european stuff honestly.
but I still think japanese breakfast is appropriating her own culture
Not really cheat sheet but like, what actually describes it
There's the element of choice and not. Choosing to wear non Western garments as an outsider vs Western garments being normalized due to Westernization
I'll read a book if I need to
This topic has libraries of books dedicated to it tbh
Bet thing you can do it chat with not white people
I do, but I still have a hard time w it
in what sense do you have a hard time?
Like talking about brands taking influence or straight up stealing a cultural item. I can see that can be seen as distasteful/disrespectful by the culture, but I also feel like the brand can make what it wants, and people can choose to buy from them if they just like the look, or buy from a cultural source to support the culture, or not buy at all
Kind of, which cultural offenses do we take into consideration when we think about it
Yes they all have those choices. It's not illegal, it's just seen as a moral failing if you believe it's appropriation. People will decide to avoid the brand if they are sensitive to that.
I also feels like it's applied differently to things like clothes or food or movies or music, and I don't understand why
Wilder Mann by Charles Fréger
I'm a culturally isolated rural Irish man so I'm very far from an expert but I'd consider any art or design drawing from a culture, especially one historically marginalised and suffering under imperialism should directly benefit that group. It should also be treated with respect if in use by people from outside that group.
because humans and culture are complex and nuanced.
Yeah ultimately it's up to each person individually to make the decision of what they're cool with and what they aren't.
I think if you're wearing things that are outside of your own culture tho you need to be mindful that people will be forming their own opinions of you in response. Because this also happens to people wearing garments that are connected to the culture in which they're participating.
just gonna say that listening to music and wearing clothes are two drastically different ways of consuming culture
Hell fuckin yeah
I think this is a separate discussion especially re: diaspora vs fobs and maybe not part of this discussion
I think that listening to another culture's music is definitely not appropriation, but performing it could be, and I would liken that to wearing another culture's clothes
ya i just wanna hate on her
Yeah I mean I’m all for hating let’s be clear
:BrainTime:
I think the way diaspora/mixed race folks treat their “home” culture and what have you is interesting, beyond the scope of this, and also unrelated to hating
insanely rough analogy
listening to music :: looking at pictures of clothes
performing music :: wearing the clothes
United States Navy Band
YouTube
Lion King - Circle of Life and He Lives In You
Hits from the movie Lion King, recorded at the U.S. Navy Memorial in Washington, D.C., as part of the U.S. Navy Band's 2019 Concert on the Avenue series. Featuring Chief Musicians Rachel Sarracco and Shana Sullivan, and Musician 1st Class Danlie Cuenca
do not dissect this the analogy is made of wet tissue paper
I guess then getting back into the foggy zone is when does it become ok to perform the music
Or make your own music with influence by it
this is why the research part is important, and talking to the people who influenced it
eating food / listening to music / looking at clothes = good
Intent and openness are key here
opening a restaurant / performing music / wearing clothes = potentially problematic
also introduces profiteering
from my pov as a korean person, most of the time people are either extremely uneducated (thinking all east asian culture is interchangeable e.g. my coworker called my hanbok a kimono 😠 ) or too fetishizing (yellow fever or koreaboos) and that just feels dehumanizing
I would categorize these broadly as experiencing the culture vs participating in it
which is a major part of this
Historically indigenous art forms like silverwork by indigenous americans was a way they fed themselves. It was a trade to keep food in the pantry. There's a limited market for native jewelry and some native artists still make it. If you're a red headed white guy in texas making it you're eating into that market and taking money out of the pocket of those artists. That's worse than say j crew making an aran sweater because the aran sweater manufacturers in Ireland aren't going to lose their houses. Ireland is wealthy and there's a safety net. So the appropriation is not the same sin.
lmao this reminds me of that vice doc where they go and visit japanese folks who are 'inspired' by chicano culture and they show their wardrobe and there's a prison uniform in there
That's a very broad example.
if there's genuine respect for me as a human being I'm all for educating them and them respectfully incorporating elements in a way that doesn't scream I don't know shit about this culture
To me, it kinda boils down to what's the intention behind wearing the item. If all it is "i think it looks cool and im not gonna bother learning more about it", then that kinda speaks to a rather self-centered mindset.
If you genuinely find it cool, you'll probably want to dig deeper and figure out what it means to the people whose culture it comes from and support them, which can be monetarily, by educating others about it, or at the very least recognizing where it comes from. It's a matter of respecting the culture and realizing that you're part of a larger global community with cultural exchange.
If you want to imagine what cultural appropriation feels like – imagine being someone from a group of people who were defeated by the Romans and having them parade around your cultural relics somewhat mockingly. Doesn't feel so great.
i think that's true but also it's very difficult to discern what intention looks like to outsiders
which is where the fogginess starts
Like:galaxybrain:
like how do you show someone your intent to be respectful? kinda messy
I also want to emphasize that it's not just a matter of "doing your research", you also have to pay your dues
There's not a number of books you get to read that unlocks kimonos as a white guy
I agree that in a snapshot in time, it's difficult to tell. I also think that over time, evidence tends to build up and you can draw conclusions as a result
reading too many actually locks out the option to wear a kimono as a white guy its crazy
Not sure if this is just aprt of the joke but what is considered paying your dues
also for the commercial aspect, my home country has a developed enough economy that if there's a cool western designer incorporating hanbok stuff into their collection koreans are usually ok with monetary gain. but I imagine it's not the same if your original economy is struggling
depends on the culture (again)
That last example, literally any culture visiting a british museum.
you can pay your dues all in one place :xd:
./s
if that wasnt clear
So what are the recommended books on this?
edward said orientalism
is kinda relevant
Portland Salsa Festival is so cancelled
i think if you're going to wear something clearly not from your own culture you should be prepared to be scrutinized even if your intentions are pure. i think the problem is a lot of white folks buckle under any kind of scrutiny related to sensitive topics like this, even if they legitimately mean well
i have a really dumb question; if the culture you are appropriating is 'okay' with you wearing a kimono as a white dude, is it harmful/bad
getting defensive is never a good look
One of my other hobbies is swing dance which is various styles of black street dances from the 1930s, 40s, and 50s. The community generally considers that you need to be deeply knowledgeable about the music, dance styles, the originators and innovators in both of those spaces, the problems with the history of the swing dance community (eg the "revival" in the 90s by white folks) and continued participation in learning about those things and other forms of black dance that came after that specific time period.
These things are also facilitated by the community tho! So it's not like you're hung out to dry after your 30 minute intro to swing dance class.
also Culture and Imperialism by Said
... basically do we need to hold up that situation today though? It isn't simply a western culture dominated world anymore, thank goodness. Probably the future holds more people wearing modern hanfu or whatever it ends up being bc that's what they see on their screens
there's a clothing store that opened up next to a closed-down chinese herb shop in chinatown that sells incense and other streetwear-type merch. they were selling t-shirts with the signage of the chinese herb shop next door, and i just assumed that it was a community-based collaboration by maybe the grown kids of the herb shop owners.
When I left, turns out that the herb shop had closed and there was a sign on the door saying it was now the private offices of the store next door. I felt kinda insulted – not only did they not take down the signage, they profited off the signage itself by parading it around on their merch. I don't know the owners of the clothing store -- maybe they're related to the herb shop. But knowing how these things go, they probably aren't.
'Yellowface' by R.F. Kuang is a really important novel imo
I think this is unanswerable.
There were native folks that said they were okay with the Chief Wahoo Cleveland Indians baseball team logo for various reasons. There were also protests from other native folks every opening home game for decades
oh okay
that makes sense
That said for kimono I think there's a pretty clear consensus
we should honestly decommission most or all of our military and have them focus on this instead
There can also be different groups. Japanese folks in Japan might say it's okay bc you're literally in Japan, but how do Japanese-Americans feel about a white guy wearing a kimono in Rural PA?
in the US maybe but europe is more divided i think
Treating any culture as monolithic is always problematic especially with something like North American Natives/First Nations/Indians/etc where there’s the larger pan-Indian movement but also hundreds of separate cultures
it's usually ok to be obviously a tourist in that country and wearing their traditional clothing esp if that's part of their tourism economy. but doing it abroad in your home country is not good
yeah that makes sense
yeah treating "the culture" as monolithic is the fallacy that makes that question impossible to answer
This is another point that makes it more confusing for me
it's complex!
I don't think we're anywhere near that far along tbh
Totally, I was just expanding on what you said (which was spot on)
Not something that can be learned in a couple of hours on a fashion gamer discord that has a lot of white guys (me)
I gotta work now but I'll be reading this later, thanks everyone
I'm here to avoid work
good luck with it! It's not easy to wrap your head around but its well worth it imo
Yes. For instance I have a friend (who’s white) who is an academic focused mostly on India and specifically language and religion. He regularly visits the country and while there he often wears religious or ceremonial garb as a sign of respect because he is mostly interacting with religious communities. He would be super unwelcome if he didn’t participate in wearing traditional clothing there. He does not wear that stuff just because back in the states.
we should do that here in nl as well tbh
i aint talking to no tourists unless you are wearing wooden clogs
this is a ploy by big clog
by this logic you can’t come to the US unless you’re wearing Hey Dudes and RealTree hats
im so happy ive never seen a pair of heydudes in my life
you aren't?
Goros is an insane case to me, because he literally went to the US to learn from native artists, then took his thing back to Japan and gate keeps the fuck out of it
This reminds me of this one Mexican restaurant that tried to open up here in Portland that was started by white ladies who watched Mexican women make food through their windows while they were on vacation
extremely portland lmfao
a lot of people have expressed my thoughts on this so apologies if i regurgitate (or appropriate 🥁 ) them but-
i have a pair of wooden clogs because we took all the ultra conservative hollanders here and created blackwater, pyramid schemes, and a tiny little dutch tourist trap that makes wooden clogs https://www.dutchvillage.com/
there's a lot of clothes in existence, and more being made every day. if you are truly, deeply, earnestly connected to something not in your culture it's worth questioning why
and if you're STILL into it then you're responsible for whatever reaction is garnered, whether intentional or not; clothing is communicative but nonverbal
Regarding clothes: I think the “if you brick,” litmus test is definitely at play. Additionally, I think the importance of a garment matters. If something has real cultural significance or importance or religious value, then maybe don’t wear it if you’re not a part of that culture (unless you’re being asked to participate in the cultural customs). For example, if I see someone wearing a war bonnet that’s insane. If someone is wearing a guayabera that is a lot less insane
Furthermore, if you don’t know enough about the culture to understand the difference between a casual shirt or a religious garment, just don’t do it
but as art said, if you ever wonder "should i wear this?" for more than a few seconds the answer is 'no'. your instincts and your experiences are the best judge, rather than the opinion of others
i think if it’s bought from someone of that culture, not shitty, cheap replica stuff and not of incredible religious or cultural significance it’s probably fine
think this is a pretty decent guideline, if there’s doubt don’t put it on
though, this is easy to say as a white dude
nooooo i hope i don't get sent a freaky gif ohhh
I read this as "Hawk Tuah rifle"
guess what
I don't have too much to contribute here, but awhile back I got a vintage boys scout bandana slide at a thrift store thinking it would be a nice alternative to tying square knots. Well after wearing it to one party and having 5 different guys come up and ask me about whether I was a scout, I decided that I was no longer comfortable wearing it.
stolen valor is actually super chill and promoted around here
There's different levels to "stolen valor", like beyond plain ol milsurp there's things that traditionally declare "I am part of this group", perhaps avoid those? More so if it's one people take seriously, boy scouts isn't that bad (though I've seen guys make pretty big frowns over that lol).
Wearing anything that looks like a war bonnet should be totally unacceptable. Though we don't need to respect British culture as much personally I'd still pass on wearing an actual regimental tie
And well zeo said you have to take the heat for whatever you do choose to wear/perform
stolen valor is pretty different from cultural appropriation IMO
for instance, stolen valor is funny
True it'd be very funny to wear a veteran hat, but the whole you gotta take the inevitable heat is as true as for wearing a haori
This is an aside but one cultural appropriation issue that is in my proximately is Japanese culture.
It's interesting because the very vast majority of people born/raised in Japan are absolutely thrilled at the prospect of foreigners getting involved in any aspect of their culture. Getting into music or anime, studying martial arts or tea or ikebana, trying on clothes...even the cringiest examples they tend to approve of.
However there is another aspect, and that is the Japanese diaspora. And what I've come to understand is that to them, it does affect their cultural identity and it is seen as cultural appropriation. And I've had people from that background express very strong feelings about the matter before.
I don't have a pony in the race and wouldn't know how to parse the nuances (although a white guy dressed up as a samurai will always look dumb as hell). I just find the contrast to be very interesting.
valentino show was weirdly topical
bro sounds like when my phone vibrates on a wood table
Stolen valor wasn't really the issue for me. More annoyance/dissatisfaction from people assuming I'm part of a group that I'm not. I realized it wasn't signaling the way I wanted my outfit to and was more hassle to wear than not. I don't think stolen valor is immoral and don't care about others doing it, it just made me feel a way that goes against my intentions.
Well said. If fashion is a mixture of internal signaling (how I like to see myself) and external signaling (how I want others to see me), then an item that makes you unintentionally appear to belong to a different group goes against your external signaling. I used to think I didn't care about stolen valor at all (and still 99% don't), but at some point I saw that Bronson sells dog tags and figured out that was my one limit.