First layer problem
Hey, anybody have an idea what could be wrong?
Z-zilt and heighmap calibration is done.
83 Replies
I also followed the solution i found with bed heat soak.. but no success.
terrible as hell - i give up on my end
Lower flow rate? Higher z offset?
@MurmelMannen here u can see the flow and z offset are okay. But then it goes closer and closer …. bed mesh should handle this normally 🤒 but it doesn’t.
Did you also heat soak the nozzle?
Check in your printer.cfg that the correct bed mesh is loaded.
yes i found a advice from @Helge Keck to solve this problem. Add code to printer.cfg to heatsoak bed and nozzle. But it don’t fix the problem
how it should look in printer.cfg ?
The first layer on mine is also very meh...
I am also Limited to smaller prints because prints over the entire bed are so unreliable.
Worst experience ever compared to any of my 4 other printers...
Mine was doing the same and I reduced the EM a bit. What material are you printing and whats the EM?
This is problem with heat expansion of 20x20 extrusion more than steel rail , i have the same isues and solved it by replaced extrusion to steel 20x20x1mm profile or you can also buy toro ti profile
See if this https://discord.com/channels/582187371529764864/1293322335545196655 is your issue, and follow there for updates.
In your printer.cfg is a macro section which should look like this:
[gcode_macro _START_PRINT_BED_MESH]
gcode:
BED_MESH_PROFILE LOAD=ratos
Also make sure that the mesh you'd like to use on the "heightmap" tab is named "ratos"I have a similar issue.
This is the relevant printer.cfg-section
As you can see I have commented out bed_heat_soak, I'm running that manually before each print for a minimum of 20 minutes.
Another weird issue I have is that the initial z height differs somewhat in most prints. I have to adjust it at the start, and it becomes perfect, then after a while it starts with the same waves as OP showed. Almost seems like it isn't using the bed mesh.
It scans the relevant bed area before each print, so I believe @boinappi suggestion is not relevant?
Printer is a vcore 4 400, enclosed.
I had the same issue you described with the z-height changing with each print. My thought was that the start_print gcode includes contact sensing, which should be done with a perfectly clean nozzle. The first print (with clean nozzle) will be fine. the next prints will always have a bit of plastic on the nozzle tip, which throws off the contact sensing.
What i did is i just eliminated that part from the start_print gcode by adding this to my printer.cfg file:
It still does the normal bed mesh scan, but it skips the part where it taps the nozzle to the bed to determine the z-offset.
@savh tyvm, that seems to immediately solve the issue with inconsistent z-height at start.
Still having the issue with ripples/waves in the print after a little while, but at least the start of the print is correct now. Looks awful. I haven't tuned the material yet though so I'll tune EM, pressure advanced etc then report back.
@tg73 Yes, this is exacly the problem i had here. It seems a lot of other users have the same issue ...
would you show me your printer.cfg please
this just looks like missing heat soaking. please try this here for testing purposes.
- add theis here to your printer.cfg
- cold pull the hotend with
- clean the nozzle tip
- run a new beacon calibration with (usee your targer print temperatures)
- print a first layer and make some adjustments if needed
this will take some time and is for testing purposes. with the heat soaking variables the beacon calibration and the start rint macro will handle the heat soaking automatically
and i highly recommend to turn this feature on again
I'm a little confused, and it seems as if in the end it always comes down to loading the correct height map and heating up the bed for a long time.
I run the V-Core with the default RatOs settings without any modifications. That should actually work, right?!
As I understand it, the problem should be solved by loosening the gantry/rail screws. So that the different shape of the material doesn't cause tension. Have I understood that correctly? Or is there a working solution that deviates from the default RatOs setting?
it depends a lot on how you have assembled your printer
i recommend to heat soak the printer and to loosen and retighten the x rail screws
also relaign ony of the y rails in a heat soaked state
then try the steps i shared above
@boinappi When I start a print, it automatically scans the print area and saves the heightmap as "ratos". It also seems that it then loads it automatically.
Okay, I'll try that later. Are you following this discussion? (https://discord.com/channels/582187371529764864/1293322335545196655) Most people there solve it by changing the heightmap strategy.
As I understand it, the basic problem is tension in the material when it heats up. Is that right?
there can be multiple source for that issue
but theat is the common factor
If this is turned (back) on, how does one solve the issue of plastic from previous print throwing off the z-height? Pulling the filament and cleaning the nozzle spotless before every print doesn't seem reasonable.
the beacon makes a cleaning wipe before each print to clean the nozzle tip, right before it makes the contact move
Are you referring to the primeblob/wipe, or the felt strips on the left and right?
For me, the primeblob/wipe happens right before the print starts, and the felt wipers are not used by default
no, there is a additional nozzle cleaningn wipe right before it makes the contact probe in the sart print macro, it cleans the nozzle by wiping any access on the build palte. this happens on the frontleft side of the build palte
the felt wipers are automatically used in case of an idex, toolheads move over them when doing the primeblobs
Thanks for this info. Perhaps i just never noticed the toolhead executing a wipe before contact probing. What lines in the macro initiate the wipe before contact probing? i am looking at mine, which is just the default RatOS, and i dont see a wipe command.
its deeply implemetned into ratos
one sec
its not a single line
it even probes at this positin with contact to make sure to wipe at the correct height
Ah i see now. My mistake, it is doing the wipe when i re-enabled 'variable_beacon_contact_start_print_true_zero: True'
However, see image:
of course, the wipe is not needed if you dont use contact homing
This is the condition of the nozzle at the time of contact probing. The wipe isnt wiping
it definitly doing the wipe if you have enabled the contact feature
its cleans only the nozzle tip, not the whole nozzle
the rest gets cleaned with the primeblob
oh, yes it is definitely going through the motion of wiping. That was my misunderstanding in what all gets turned off when i disabled "variable_beacon_contact_start_print_true_zero'
Now with it re-enabled, I am wondering if there is a better wiping method? Mine will tap the bed, then raise a slight bit before slowly moving from left to right. Should the nozzle be dragging on the bed, or is this how it should behave?
the nozzle is suppose to probe the ipe position and then to move to Z0.2 and then doing the wipe
so it uses the bed to remove any filament residue from the nozzle tip
I dont mean to hijack your thread @Flo@GRNbms. I do feel this is related because i had similar issues as what you originally posted, and despite being corrected in that my "fix" isnt the ideal solution, it did work, which tells me we are on the right path, perhaps?
Okay, so the lift is intentional. What if this was reduced to maybe Z0.1? It just seems that there is still always residue on the nozzle tip for myself and maybe the OP as well.
the lift is part of the contact probing
the 0.2mm seemed to work well for msot people and the contct results are pretty reliable, but if you want you can override the macro and change that value
Hi 🙋♂️ this are the first layer results after recommended changes. Heat soak the printer for 1hour and the loosen/tighten the x/y rail, cold pull, beacon calibration
didn‘t know what is the problem, its a 2000€ printer… not a cheap one. So its recommended to space flight engineering to keep it running?
your filament profile is completely untuned, i see y completely wrong PA value when i see your images
this for example is not a z-offset value
thats 100% a wrong filament profile
and the same problem could be your flowrate for the filament
befroe you print such big prints you should make sure your profile is properly tuned
this has nothing to do with the price of the printer
dont oyu see that on both sides, under and overextrusion at the perimeter
thats not z-offset related
if it were it would be visible over the complete area
there is mroe going on that z-offset for sure
i understand this - so you mean the areas in the white markers are not a z problem? is a PA/filament problem? Shure the perimeter looking bad.
there might be a z-problem as well, but this looks more like multiple issues compbined
i woudl start with simple test prints to make sure the filament profile is tuned before trying to make such large first layer prints
make a PA calibration, a flowrate calibrateion, print some small testprints
then try bigger prints
Thanks for your advice, i will follow them and will report.
Reporting:
calibrated as good it goes
beginning is ok, then it goes bad….
all recommendations followed
on small prints no problem
on large prints it goes wrong
all is heat soaked 1 hour and then calibrated
it feels the Nozzle goes closer to the bed, as longer it prints
like adaptive bed mesh is not working
v-core 4 is 500 very annoying
Having the same issue with my V3.1
Did you read https://discord.com/channels/582187371529764864/1293322335545196655/1325133434061983827 ? Did you try physically reversing the fan and removing the shroud to see whether this is the same issue?
@mazas yes i try several things. Today i try to implement „gantrywarm“ macro .. but i get error reports by starting the print.
Best result is aktually with reversed hotend fan and heatsoak the gantry manually for 1 hour
reversing the fan brings the best results
Ok, then you are most probably suffering from the hotend-induced bowing. The issue has been identified, and RR is testing for improvements. I did the “gantrywarmer” just as POC to try out on my printer and got some improvement but not a full fix. And consequently the gantrywarmer probably works only on a 400, it is not production-ready stuff.
Personally, I’ll be running the reverse fan with a modified housing until we get something more robust, but cannot recommend that since it has not been tested well and will certainly reduce the fan lifetime
jesus from what this comes from
Yea.. i was wondering what you mean by that 🙂
i have no problem to spend a few fans… we stack up a print farm for our inhouse production and 2 additional printer are ordered
so i need to get this boys running 🏃♂️
sorry, mistake. it comes up here and i would click it away
what modified housing you used?
Ok, then by all means try running reversed until a better fix is available. And get rid of the shroud 🙂
i ordered also a gantry from spanntechnik
Titanium?
must be 😮💨 we running large parts on the printer… and this make the most problems until now
sorry, the gantry comes from BRS france. I also ordered a Z upgrade for interest.
spanntechnik could not deliver
I’ll be using the 25v6. Just to get an understanding of how little cooling is enough. But I’m still at the phase of converting a measurement build back into a production/printing build, so I cannot comment on how well it really performs in practice long term.
I hope it is not an aluminum gantry..
you worry about the different materials that also produce an bimetallic effect?
Absolutely. That is the main component causing this issue
i need to check, ordered that 2 Months ago, where the problems start
but i think is alu …. did you have an recommendation where to buy titanium gantry?
Toro3d is the one I know of
I have one from them, but I did not want to install until we understood the behavior well enough with the stock
yes that makes sense
i also need a little bit to understand whats going on, but now we’re on spot.
Yea. If you want to start fast, and don’t mind changing the housing later, i would now start with the “stock sealed” housing and the better fan, running reversed. But that has NOT been tested thoroughly, so take that into account
yes, i am thankful for all advises they help…. i need to check again how to seal the stock housing. I have also no problem to print and install an modified one.
mod housing is linked in the report about the problem you made ?
Yes
And it is not me, we did it together with @tg73 🙂
aww sorry, don’t want to forget him.
i am very happy about this recherche - it helped me a lot
Just to note that the modified housing was not checked at all for actual printing - which includes fitting the belts and belt clamps to it. It may not be strong enough or have the right fixing points for that. The report notes that the modified housings are not claimed to be suitable for printing use.
yes i understand, thanks. I want to try it anyhow.
anyhow i am disappointed from RatRig. If i know before i get a free developer membership for their printers, i where go for another brand.
but now i have 3 machines and need to run them