What does it mean to dress for yourself?
So this was inspired by a thread yesterday on how to dress to attract more women, and a mod told me this belongs here: what exactly do people mean by dressing for yourself?
I'm betting the majority of men do not grow up with much investment in self-care things, whether that's fashion, hygiene, etc. Moreover, I'm betting a lot of men that develop the urge to dress better are externally motivated (ie the "lonely men" type who don't want to be single). Which makes sense to me - fashion as a means to an end.
But what does it mean to dress for yourself? Isn't the whole point of dressing well to make yourself more appealing to other people? You could say it improves your internal self-confidence, but you get the self-confidence boost because you'd know that you're more conventionally attractive, and that therefore people will like you by default.
You could apply this to pretty much any self-improvement thing by the way, like fitness, hobbies, whatever. To me, the overarching issue is that we're social creatures, and everything else is downstream of that. There's a general attitude of "you need to do things for yourself" which is what I'm trying to explore here. Pic vaguely related.
173 Replies
I think there's a fundamental difference between wearing what you think women/desired sex find attractive and what you think makes you attractive based on what you feel reflects you
fashion at its core is a form of self expression and so only wearing what you think your desired sex will find attractive is no different than putting on a personality that you think your desired sex will find attractive rather than acting authentically
it's fine to dress in a way that makes you feel sexy, in fact it's encouraged
but if your endgame is just min/maxxing having sex then it can become problematic
You lost me here- I feel good about the way I dress because I look like a wizard or a rockstar or an all around cool guy, not because I feel like I look more conventionally attractive
I don’t like the guy in the mirror because he’s fuckable I like him because he has an artistic vision
the goal is to look in the mirror and be able to think 'I like how I look,' not 'women will like how I look'
if the two intersect that's great
but if you find yourself only viewing fashion as a way to attract the desired sex then right off the bat you're not being genuine
I think there's a fundamental misunderstanding here with that last paragraph - the social interaction I'm looking to get out of hobbies like this is to find like-minded people within this same interest, rather than using it as an avenue to "impress" laypeople
I will say that this is an important and helpful question to pose so kudos to you OP
I think you need to seriously rethink your premises. I don’t do hobbies for self improvement. I participate in hobbies because I like the thing and the people
It's the same issue that I feel like a lot of people misinterpret with stuff like makeup. I genuinely know people that do it because it's an actual artistic outlet for them rather than the common misconception of "making themselves pretty," and even when that is the reason, it is a valid reason to want to feel prettyfor yourself. That idea of wanting to look good to make yourself feel good is something that I think is independent of other people's perceptions of you
Doing things for yourself is part of the social fulfillment. What’s the point of doing something if you don’t enjoy it or the people?
It's quite reductionist to think the end goal is using it to effectively "fish" for social interaction rather than just it being a byproduct of having shared interests
I wouldn't say I don't do hobbies for self improvement, cause thats not true. But to kinda hit at the core of this for me, I do things for my own self image. If that attracts people who like that thing, thats probably a plus since i also like that thing, thats why I've adjusted my self image and appearence to reflect it. But I also make plenty of people likely not like me for various reasons. Or they simply don't like something about my goals in how I appear but like me anyway. Thats also fine, its normal.
I don't do this to get laid (90% of the things stopping you from getting laid are your personality/social grace/ability to put yourself in good social situations, not anything to do with how you look beyond a pretty bare minimum). I do this cause its fun and I'm vain. Its for me, not for anyone else.
Ditto for tattoos/the gym
Its about how I want to appear and be perceived
“It’s fun and I’m vain” —so true
My two biggest hobbies affect/are about my appearance call me narcissus
But anyway my point is everything is in the eye of the beholder, and what people mean here is you are the beholder
so what does your eye tell you
Also to comment on the whole second paragraph with men usually not being motivated to groom/self care - there's a very large discussion to be had about how this difference in standards has evolved, but it's a lot more complex than simply saying "men do it now bc the standards to impress women are so low"
Also ya, fashion isn't a means to an end
You don’t look like a daffodil sorry
I'm in here because dressing is fun and regular clothes are boring to me. A lot of people not into fashion probably think I look like a dork and that's ok!
I think you look good bro
And something important to touch on - your definition of approval from your peers being tied to being conventionally more attractive is something you should probably nip in the bud
there's a good few people here (and presumably others you've seen irl) that dress extremely against the grain but still feel confident in their outfits (i.e. people that lean hard into subcultures/aesthetics); they're still able to enjoy themselves in their fits despite it being a turn off for a lot of people attractiveness-wise, but they aren't outcasts because of it
You can also engage with fashion by dressing for others but that's a whole topic by itself
coincidentally, and speaking neutrally here, the guy with the artistic vision is inherently more fuckable
to properly give my own two cents for the question, my dressing for myself is dressing in a way that makes me proud of how i dress. i'm dressing myself up to make me proud to wear my own skin, my own clothes. and like breadfruit was talking about, that involves going against the grain a fair bit. but it's me and that's what matters. my whole aesthetic is edgy and weird and aggressively so in both ways. just uh. i'm not quite edgy or weird enough yet i think. but i'm getting there and that's what counts.
I think beyond the whole "looking in a way I like" thing I also like the way that fashion gives you another toolbox to express things about yourself and your moods. For example one of my favourite fits is one that I put together when I was really grumpy and in a bad mood:
And i feel like the pink picking up the purple hue in the dark indigo plus the stompy combat boots really expressed that grumpyness quite well.
So really fashion is also a kind of extra language you can use to express yourself and sometimes thats just very helpful for its own sake.
dressing for myself is an act of thoughtful rebellion. avant garde isn't well represented where i live, and it's something that can be evocative- it tends to push more boundaries into unusual silhouettes or shapes.
the way i dress represents the way that i feel- i'm embracing the otherness that i feel, by physically being something challenging. it's a conscious choice to rebel against the idea that i have to be anything.
the confidence boost comes from the idea of authenticity. i can appear physically as the truest form of how i want to be perceived, embracing that otherness. i've found that this has opened significantly more doors for me in every aspect.
Yeah. Feeling authentic to ones self really is a great experience
But what does it mean to dress for yourself? Isn't the whole point of dressing well to make yourself more appealing to other people?
Nope, I honestly don't give a fuck there. Like anything, being true to yourself is far more important (and honestly, in my experience, people find that more attractive anyway)as others have said, dressing well for me is largely an element of personal expression and outlet of creativity. frankly, i don't need to be 'desirable' to the chosen sex because a) i'm married and b) the friends/family i do have all have either come to accept this as a part of me or else are no longer my friends
we all can have different motivations for dressing well or other aspects of self-improvement, but for me the onus in putting on clothes shifted to 'what am i getting out of it' vs 'what will [x] think of it
with respect to just attracting your desired sex, if the goal is to have a meaningful and lasting relationship then at some point it's going to have to be based on things other than appearance
The fact that humans are social creatures does not mean that all of our actions are defined by our relationship to sex. You may be misunderstanding what people mean when they say that. Being a social species means that we have to work together, we function better as a group than as an individual, it does not mean that we have no will or personality or desire of our own. In fact most of the social conventions that follow from the human desire to be in a group rather than out of one, are a direct result of the clashes between our personal beliefs and desires and the necessities of “the group.” If you are treating all of self improvement or in fact all “non essential” activity as a vast manipulation to convince other people you are normal enough to have sex with, you have fully lost the plot of what the point of being alive is. Hobbies aren’t a hack to seem interesting on dates, the point is that you are motivated to put time into them on your own. If you are spending your limited time on earth performing hobby in the belief it will assuage some loneliness you feel, I am deeply sorry. The thing that will assuage that is actually engaging in a thing you personally care about, and meeting the people who feel the same way
I started by appreciating how characters dress in movies, TV shows, even fashion adverts. (And yes I enjoy how the male characters dress, even though I’m hetero.) It’s a kind of art, kind of beauty.
Then it becomes a hobby, where I try out combinations of clothes, and it’s fun seeing what works and what doesn’t (with myself being the judge).
So I do this for myself and not for other people, but funnily it is possible that at some point, like you pointed out, it started benefitting me socially. There are still some snobbier restaurants in my city that turned my friends away, while the far less financially successful me got in…
basing your own dress off of characters in media who dress like you do (or want to!) is how i work, and i think you can see some artifacts of that in my outfits, especially with how tight my color schemes tend to be
it’s a very good method of figuring out exactly what you’re looking to do with your own wardrobe and fit composition
@LeidenV curious re your thoughts to what everyone had to say
@LeidenV
@art Interesting discussion all around, my bad lads, I've been on ICU nights for the past few days and completely exhausted. To reply to some interesting things and clarify some of what I meant:
(Also, I hope this doesn't come off debate-broey; the thread has genuinely challenged my beliefs, and I just completely lost track off time the past few days)
I think this is what I was originally trying to get at. Most people think "I look good" because they know other people will think they look good. I brought up the idea of women thinking you're attractive because the context of men looking to dress better is often in that setting
I would say the difference is that what looks pretty for yourself isn't independent of what other think; I'd even argue that it's a learned behavior. You brought up makeup, but I'd use the analogy of high heels; I seriously doubt most women initially want to wear them. But the positive reinforcement from other women (and men who approach them) engrains in you the idea that wearing heels makes you look good for you
"how I want to... be perceived" gives the game away doesn't it? Is it a "self" image if it's innately tied to how others see you?
Admittedly, this is a good counter-example. If you dress in a way that most people aren't attracted to at all (ex: you dress like a Tibetan monk), my argument loses it's basis. Though I'd say that may be true in the narrow subset of a fashion advice Discord, most people don't do that, right?
"Hobbies aren’t a hack to seem interesting on dates, the point is that you are motivated to put time into them on your own. If you are spending your limited time on earth performing hobby in the belief it will assuage some loneliness you feel, I am deeply sorry. The thing that will assuage that is actually engaging in a thing you personally care about, and meeting the people who feel the same way.”
Ahh, this is also a fun one to address. I find it hard to believe that the fundamental need to belong, one of the more basic one's on Maslow's hierarchy, is something that you can really fill with a hobby. Hobbies after all, are temporary. If you're super into MMA, you may find that need met while you're in the ring, surrounded by an eager crowd, but sooner or later the match comes to an end, no?
And one last general thing I've noticed multiple people bring up, the idea that you pursue what you like and in doing so, you'll surround yourself with people with similar interests. Where on Earth are all these people that you can just filter through to carve out this niche? In day-to-day life, you more or less see the same subset of people every day. I live in a huge city and even to me, it's strange to think of a social network just building itself like that.
i mean personally anyways, i’d say part of it is wanting people to see you the way you see yourself. dress is an important part of gender expression for a reason!
- makeup: not a mutually exclusive thing tbf. to put it that way. there's a spectrum between doing things for utilitarian reason or aesthetic reasons but they can coexist within a individual too
- perception: being in a society is inherently performative. i would even just literally say that i'm a reflection of the people around me and that's a good thing bc i learn from others to work on myself. self-image simply cannot be divorced from external perceptions (but everyone cares differently
- hobbies: i feel like that's a question of what you do. different interests have different things inclined to socializing. my friend is in a run club. i do water sports and literally have 40 teammates. online spaces like this support interests like fashion that may not have a well defined irl counterpart
To expand I care about how a sub group sees me. Its more ingroup signalling than general signalling. Dudes in full rick are dressing for someone who understands what full rick is, they know everyone on the street will be scared of them, thats part of the fun. I'm not there yet, but its the same concept.
Hmmm, good point, I was actually just thinking about gender affirming care. Going down this rabbit hole then: dress in the context of gender expression functions prescriptively - if we show up to a restaurant together, and you're wearing a sick MFA-approved fit while I'm in high heels and a skirt, the waiter is probably going to pull my chair out first when we get seated, thinking to himself "ladies first"
So wouldn't that extend to how you dress normally? IE I think I'm a cool dude, I want to dress like a cool dude so others think I'm a cool dude
not necessarily!
skirts can be worn in a masculine fashion
it’s all about how you shape yourself with it, and how you dress with that skirt, gown, robe, etc
high heels too
Oops hit enter too soon there; it's true skirts can be worn in a masculine fashion, but like in general I mean. I just meant a female-coded piece of clothing
yeah. a lot of that’s slowly being dismantled which is nice
especially speaking as someone who still likes wearing heels sometimes as a treat
I had absolutely no idea what full rick is
Ingroup signalling is a good point
Unfathomably based
I do a lot of gender-affirming care, so love to see it
same. redoing my closet has been gender-affirming care. i just need to save a little bit of fem for the times when i can go "i'm only a girl because it's gay"
What if life is meaningless
One must imagine Sisyphus happy
Have you ever had a dream that that you um you had you'd you would you could you'd do you wi you wants you you could do so you you'd do you could you you want you want him to do you so much you could do anything?
I don't have dreams
That’s why I added the last part about meeting the people also engaged in the hobby in question. For one thing I take issue with the idea that hobbies can’t be fulfilling on their own, but ignoring that, I have made many many friends through fashion, I met the person I have lived with for 4 years through fashion, the friends I see most often I met through fashion. Not being able to expand your circle through hobbies is purely through a lack of effort not due to a fundamental impossibility. Not to say that effort is easy, just that it is absolutely a thing you can do.
As far as hobby as a self fulfilling exercise, I just can’t imagine that anyone who has ever experienced a creative impulse and the satisfaction of fulfilling that creative impulse would accept that hobbies can’t be fulfilling without the validation of personal sexual attraction
i'm gonna be that guy but we carve our own meaning from it if it is so cosmically meaningless
respectfully, have you tried? if you're an artist, you source paints, if you're an mma fighter, you find a gym to train in and people to fight, if you tell knock-knock jokes you have to find out from someone what the basic structure is and if you like wearing clothes you have to find them/buy them/figure out how to dress. in all these cases the pursuit of a hobby leads you to other people with some sort of interest in it and in most cases it's harder to not find like minded people to engage with about your chosen hobby.
The things that we do to express ourselves are often complex and intertwined with hundreds of feelings but trying to divide those things out and say that one reason is core and true while the others are secondary or tertiary is not only fruitless but misguided.
The counterpoint is that people pursue hobbies for different reasons. I can't objectively prove this, but a lot of people comparmentalize different parts of their lives. If rock climbing is your thing, you might have rock climbing friends, but it's rare these become your close friends. In the scenario of the lonely 24-year-old self improover, they're seeking a degree of intimacy that the average rock climbing enthusiast likely has met elsewhere (usually their romantic partner, roommate/close friend, etc.).
I think it's harsh to say you're just not trying hard enough if you haven't been able to expand your social circle through hobbies. Consider the hobby, and whether or not that group of people are people you even want to surround yourself with. To reiterate, not saying it's impossible to expand your social circle this way, rather that it's improbable, if and only if what you're looking for is a level of intimate connection (ex: close friend). If you just want something to kill time, and consider a social circle as just people you know tangentially, then yes you could expand your circle social that way.
Also, I never said the pursuit of hobbies was something you would do out of sexual attraction. I was arguing you pursue hobbies, at least in part, of a desire to belong, not specifically sexual desire. You absolutely can fulfill a creative impulse out of a hobby, as the average rock-climbing enthusiast in my above example does (though if you're into something like dance, you probably do have ulterior motives).
im rolling at rock climbing being the example bc the stereotype is that climbing gyms are just a big polycule
wym dancers have ulterior motives lmao
“Though if you’re into something like dance you have ulterior motives” what
Sortof the same as what I told bishop. What you want and what other want doesn't have to line up.
Every dancer I've ever met is part of a polycule lmfao
So
you should get a job at a movie theater cuz ur super good at projecting
That's actually accurate. The difference is that the social dance scenes I've been in ban people that just try to date everyone
Ascribing your anecdotal experience to preemptively judge huge swathes of people is foolish
I can't exactly find a randomized controlled study to prove this lmfao. Nothing in this thread is evidence based
Me a dancer with ulterior motives: my secret is I wanna dance with cool people they have no idea
If you are doing a hobby primarily to fuck the other people you meet you have other issues you need to resolve
Do you know how you become close friends with someone @LeidenV ?
Being horny isn't an issue lol it's a need people act on all the time?
That’s not what I said
I'm trying to avoid making this about me specifically
royal you
I’d rather you did talk about yourself instead of making unbacked generalizations tbh
If you want to talk about something you are personally dealing with, that’s totally valid
Sure man, I'll steelman the position. There's nothing wrong with pursuing a hobby purely to get laid. There's no difference between shooting your shot on the dance floor than at your local dive bar at 1AM
Yeah there is actually
Because you are dehumanizing other people
It’s manipulative
Alright, what's the issue? If you're not weird about it idk what the problem is
I just told you
It's manipulative to have a good time with someone and go from there?
No
inb4 "can't ask anyone out anymore"
That’s still not what I said
You have to think with some level of nuance here
sorry bishop I'll stop memeing
Because everyone is a human
It’s absolutely fine to meet and date people through your hobby
...and? If you're going to ask for nuance here, I didn't say "refuse to interact with anyone who you don't immediately want to breed"
nothing wrong with pursuing a hobby purely to get laidIs not the same as
have a good time with someone and go from there
That’s not what anyone said
I have been in a relationship with someone I met through discord for nearly 4 years
Do you know why I was in a fashion discord
Because I like fashion
I still don't have a good answer to why pursuing a hobby purely to get laid is wrong. If you're not hurting anyone along the way, what's the issue?
Because you're arguing under the assumption that's why anyone does anything
I still never said that. I said if you wanted to that's fine too.
biiiiig if
You don’t think you are hurting people because you don’t understand that it’s fundamentally dishonest and dehumanizing to do something as an act to convince someone else to sleep with you
Never have I experienced someone entering a hobby to get laid and being a positive addition to the scene
I was arguing people pursue hobbies for emotional belonging, whether it's friends or a partner
If you don’t have any interest in something why the fuck are you doing it
They either realize their mistake and change, leave, or get banned
If the answer to that question is “I really want to have sex with a dancer” you have a problem
And all the hobbies that require a solo experience? All the hobbies where it's just you and the thing you're doing? For emotional belonging?
Bro what you're not convincing anyone? They have the free will here? How is this scenario any different than going out to a bar with friends and taking someone home?
Because going out to a bar has a different social contract than participating in a hobby space
Ok fair point. But in that scenario, you won't be making friends off the hobby then, right?
People that go to bars and try to get laid all the time famously not creepy and problematic
The difference is an understanding of where both parties are coming from
What do you want bro? Are you just arguing to try and be right at this point?
It's creepy and problematic if you refuse to read social cues and persistently harass someone. Otherwise, that's literally built into the pricing model of bars and most clubs
If everyone in a room except you is there because they love yugioh and you’re there because you love to fuck yugioh players, don’t you see a fundamental imbalance there
you do stuff solo bc it's fun
you do stuff with people bc you like the stuff, the people, or both
invading spaces purely to get laid is creepy and disrespectful
And that you appear to be there primarily to take advantage of people
Rather than the people who are bonding honestly over passion about a shared interest
No I've banned people that just join a dance scene and ask out all of the people they think are cute like they're speedrunning the group
Don’t you see how those different perspectives would make you interact differently?
lol at the yugioh example, thats wild
the catch here is nobody fucks yugioh players
Would you go to a hobby space and immediately tell everyone “I actually don’t care about this I just want to meet someone to get laid”
i would know
Read past the metaphor for a second
Be an adult
I urge you to engage earnestly instead of deflecting
How do you think others would respond to you doing this
If you can’t be honest about it, doesn’t that indicate a problem with the methodology
Ahh yes, the nuanced take of loudly announcing that you want to get laid. Surely this doesn't flaunt social convention at all
Don’t be stupid
It's just a joke man
I don’t have all day
You made the claim lmfao
Read it again
Apply the logic as to why it would be a problem
You can absolutely be apathetic about a hobby space and use it primarily as a way to meet potential romantic partners. Consider your average rec sports league
Do I need to be an olympic kickball player to intrude on this sacred space @bishopcorrigan
I don’t care if people do it
It is an absurdly easy behavior to spot. This is more accurate than you're giving it credit for bc you're being avoidant
Clearly you do care
I’m saying the fact that people do it doesn’t make it okay
I think they shouldn’t
But the fact that they do has no bearing here
Then they get kicked out if they clearly have no interest at all whatsoever, and nobody's really hurt here? Again, this is steelmanning an extreme scenario
I also don’t think you have an understanding of why most people do anything
Why do they get kicked out
Why do organizers in these scenarios want to remove those people
try again
They make people uncomfortable
Exactly dog
Which is causing harm
wonderful
Why do they make people uncomfortable
we've reached the same conclusion
they're being persistent
Because they have alternative motivation
after being told no
No
not a requirement
They make people uncomfortable before that
Because they’re lying
Because they walk into a space under false pretense
Because their fundamental dishonesty belies a lack of respect for the people around them
So if the person was an excellent dancer and also asked out every person in the dancer space, would you kick them out?
Try and understand this
I have personally banned people from my dance scene that don't re-ask people after being turned down
Sure, so what if they're also a great dancer? Still ban them or nah?
yes, I've done it
How many movies have you seen
Hey hey hey they clearly had an interest in dance
why ban them?
Stop
a good community leader will prioritize the safety and comfort of the people in their community
Reread above
Don’t get distracted
i don’t know why that’s such a foreign concept
This thread has made it so blindingly obvious why you think the way you do.
Why do organizers consider people with ulterior motives to be a danger to their groups
It’s not because they pushed to far
It’s because they started wrong to begin with
If it didn’t matter, you wouldn’t lie about it to begin with
It’s just that simple
Engage with people honestly or don’t engage
Go to a speed dating event
Go to singles nights
Go get dates where that’s the agreed upon contract
Yeah. Duh?
Don’t break the social contract of honesty for the sake of getting laid
It is manipulative
It is dehumanizing
You are reducing others to objects
Reevaluate your perspective
In fact, the people that are better, but have the bad motives, are more of a danger to community bc they can land in positions of power
to keep a safe space safe you have to viciously curate your vibes
which is how this place is run
This is comically puritan and you're shadowboxing the extreme example of someone who only pursued a hobby to get laid, which I cannot emphasize enough, was not the original point. No space is sacrosanct of normal human desires. And yes, most people pursue most hobbies without the purest devotion the hobby in question.
You’ve missed the point
Read it again
I already told you, I have been dating someone I met through my hobby for 4 years
Read it again
by that same token what you may want (to wear clothes to find belonging or validation or a mate) and what others may want (to wear clothes as a method of self expression or form of signaling or as a hobby).
Your point is that it's bad faith to enter a space for the sake of getting laid; I was steelmanning the extreme position of entering a space purely for that sake, but again, not the original point. Nobody turns of their brain and their needs in pursuit of a hobby; ironically, you're proving my point by dating someone you met through your hobby
Read it again
Understand what I’m trying to say and convince me you’ve understood it
That's true, essentially a defeater to the original thing I was trying to say
you are not steel manning
Or I’ll have no choice but to remove you from this community due to clear predatory instincts
idt you know what steelmanning means
you're just being a dick.
I’m tired of repeating myself trying to draw some humanity out of you
Demonstrate that you can learn or leave
Someone do me a favor and ping me in a few hours to resolve this
Thank you
Well, I re-read the entire thread top to bottom. One last try then: you're arguing that violating a social contract by entering a space centered around a hobby without actually being interested in a hobby, and instead doing it to get laid, is bad because it alters the way you would interact with people who were otherwise there because they liked the hobby. And that if you incidentally end up in a relationship with someone, that's fine.
What do you believe
Having read all of this and used your powers of empathy
It's probably a dick move
Thank you
I appreciate you rereading and trying to understand where we are coming from
@LeidenV having gone through the thread what you do think it means to "dress for yourself"?
I'm sorry if this came across as predatory. Friend groups and relationships are abstract concepts to me. From another perspective, I think I'm starting to see the issue with my approach.
(not meant to be a gotcha or anything like that, just want to see where we're at)
Genuinely it is very very hard to reevaluate personally held positions so I greatly appreciate that you did the work to try
And I truly think that you will benefit from being willing to examine this
It's not a gotcha. I think my takeaway is that "dress for yourself" is more than just dressing in a way you think is nice. It's your way of interacting with others, expressing to them what you value, and shaping how your own social circles form.
:,)
Thank you for your patience. I think my own experiences have entrenched some extreme positions in my worldview. I don't know how or where, but I need to deconstruct them.
It’s worth the effort to see it effect some change, you’re on a good path if you’re able to see that now
Respect you actually thinking through this, its a bigger step than most folks take