Clothing as Aspirational - Topic of the day 4/17/24
How does fashion intersect with status? What do you want to personally communicate about yourself? How has the cultural zeitgeist evolved and how does the average person interact with it?
112 Replies
Oh boy
In my line of work (big tech), I think fashion intersects very loosely with status. Execs don't dress significantly differently than software engineers.
i feel like if i think about it i can come up with something but dont think it's going to be genuine. ultimately i just wear what i like. of course the end result does come with come messages that get read from what i wear and the impressions it leaves but ultimately its just a i wear what i like and i hope what i convey from that is oh i like what hes wearing.
I've gotten (friendly) comments just for wearing an OCBD on a zoom call. A jacket and tie will definitely get you noticed. And I kinda like that! I've joked that the dumber my company gets, the nicer I will dress, so in a few years I'll probably be wearing white tie and tails to work. 🙂
fwiw i wrote this totd thinking about https://discord.com/channels/1116793467654381685/1228374071281057794/1228391300328325120 so feel free to continue or reiterate from that thread
And, to be fair, as much as I criticize my employer, I can basically wear what I like and it's not a big deal. That's nice.
quiet luxury sucks, loud luxury sucks, choosing clothing as a means of projecting socioeconomic status sucks, aaaaa
honestly though all i remember about hs in terms of fashion is recognizing what all the popular ppl worn and wanting to fit in
but i think that all ended the moment the hypebeasts were discussing how they need to wear adidas trackpants to maximize their facebook profile likes and i was like wow that's the nerdiest fucking dumb shit i've ever heard (paraphrased)
i want to communicate that i got swag and that shit on me
A good book that :derek: was repping on twitter from the ametora author.
It made me mad and have to quit listening because of how true it probably is.
i haven't read that book yet but ametora was cool
i'm honestly fascinated by the whole covid era of discord e-boy and e-girl aesthetics and how they literally worn the same kind of clothing and had the same personality
like trying so hard to tap into this certain persona
My work clothes go in their designated, dirty spot and dont touch my other clothes, nor do i like being seen in them. My blue collar work is just a means to an end. I dont think anyone thinks im rich for wearing nice things either though.
just placed a library hold for this, thanks!
is there a difference between status and social signaling. That is, is trying to fit into a specific group that may not tradionally be high status aspirational or not?
Anything you aspire towards can be aspirational but most would assume you're aspiring upwards.
i don't see why not
i think you could social signal and it has nothing to do w/ status
It's lower socio economic edge groups that generate more creativity because they don't have to risk status to be different, they have no status. Then the rich steal their novelty and it filters down to the middle class.
That's the crux of status and culture w/ regards to fashion.
Also that this novelty engine has been shattered by recent tech and trends.
i was trying to remember why this sounded so familiar
but then i remembered this is literally how new metas develop in league đź’€
low elo players do stupid shit bc they can and then high elo players go wait wtf ima take it
Makes sense it would translate to other hierarchies
i was gonna make a smart ass comment but will sit on this because i have many thoughts
just cause a lot of my interest in prep and ivy is taking that and smashing it together with streetwear (like is in vogue tbf) as a bit of rebellion against the people who have historically worn prep/ivy.
I want it to be subversion not aspirational more than anything, especially given my background would be the "normal" person who historically wore prep/ivy, so theres roots of that. And those people suck.
i think in recent times there has been a movement in the luxury fashion sphere that more readily adopts the novelty and showcases it, with more visible reference to the original people that created it, but that in turn has created this weird obsession with the "old money" look.
oh wow the thoughts came really quickly but - as a visible minority in traditionally white spaces (and, for a long time, white and female spaces) fashion and clothes were a way to communicate that i was approachable and nonthreatening, and that initially led to lots of preppy clothes in the mid 2010s. it was a reaction to the environment i had chosen to be in and while i don't dress like that anymore i think there is some merit to kinda "looking" the part until people are able to value you on your own merits
I disagree with how true it is personally
Yeah I'm not saying it's definitively true. It's definitely reductive, it makes status the driver of everything which is nonsense.
It's certainly a powerful factor but there's more room for genuine creative drive and individuality than he leaves room for I think.
HOWEVER dress for yourself; life is too short and too hard to not be true to yourself unless your true self kicks dogs and besides, presenting as something that is inauthentic will only last so long, especially if it's something like high SES which can be invalidated easily through other means (see: marge simpson's chanel suit)
I will say I always resent the idea that everyone is trying to be like the top of the current rat race (read: old rich white men) cause I think thats bullshit. But as far as I can tell, thats the argument of "everyone dresses for status".
hence why i'm not a fan of things like "dress for the job you want" or "do these things so people will find you attractive" because it suggests your base self a) isn't good enough to function and b) needs to improve through a narrow set of factors
Telling people that they shouldn't dress for status is like saying you shouldn't make money for happiness. It's true once you get past a certain baseline
There's certainly more nuance than that. As a crude example, dressing like an old white dude doesn't gain you much status in the metal scene. The general thesis of Status & Culture is that everyone is dressing for status, but signaling to different groups. Counter-culture signaling and all of that. I still think that thesis isn't a very good one though
ya thats fair, and i don't always disagree but i think it squashes individuality
how so?
All this deep stuff. I just want to wear cute outfits, and maybe get complimented occasionally.
But now that I think of it, that is privilege. I don't have much that I aspire to right now as far as status and career.
I aspire to work less and give fewer fucks about what people think of me.
i do intentionally avoid dressing like the mathematically average office drone to project that i am “different” so that i can (hopefully) more easily interact with other folks who don’t make their (corporate or federal) job the most important part of their identity ig
I have to wear a suit, so I enjoy leaning into it rather than fighting it. I gave myself stockholm syndrome, learned a bit about tailoring and overdo it when I go into the office so I enjoy subverting the dress code from the other side.
That sounds cool, and I think I would do the same thing. But it also sounds like a chore to have to get dressed up for work.
it becomes a lot easier with repetition
Not if you love dressing up, which I do.
Also I'm only in the office 1 day a week so it's a novelty.
and more authentic too; i wasn't a blazer and tie person until i wore them enough times and realized i enjoyed it
currently in the office for the first time in 5 years wearing wide/oversized fit everything :IsaDabDance:
Dressing aspirationally for top-level status or for your career is the most boring avenue imo. I aspire to dress as a louche ivy cowboy. I certainly have not achieved it
you wear them well!
"repetition legitimizes" one of my favorite little sayings
shoulda jumped on that J. Press cowboy shirt then
There's an element of reclaiming lost working class valour as well. I feel like we've been robbed of something by fast fashion and trends. There used to be working class people in factories and farmers wearing tailoring made locally of local fabric. That's not as far removed where I'm from as it would be in the USA. Like we're talking a hair over 1 generation.
Just in my experience, dressing "well" helped get attention early in my career/dating life when I had no other ways of being taken seriously. Once I had other things to show, it wasn't really necessary
Yeah, I think we've lost something with S/M/L sizes. Off-the-rack clothing just doesn't fit as well as it should, IMO.
i think aspirational dressing is fine in tandem with a solid foundation of your own being; a lot of the issue i have with how the old money aesthetic is being approached nowadays is that it's used as a substitute for a personality and, unlike westernwear or goth or other aesthetics where there's additional signifiers that would place you in that group (geographic location, hobbies, etc) "quiet luxury" has no character other than look rich. it's not like people go to abercrombie, buy a giant sweater vest and then play croquet
I think another way to describe it is that aspirational dressing is a great way to "fake it till you make it"
Aspiring to look cool and have fun
I don't really work a job where I can do that, so it comes out in my off time
What an interesting topic. For myself, there isn't really anything specific I want to communicate, as I don't think my personal style is really anything special. I guess in a way this in itself conveys that I don't want people to think I care too much, which is actually caring. I think this may be the case for most people here but at the core I'm really dressing for myself. The big majority of people I interact with really only notice or care if it's something obvious, which isn't as easy to recognize in most of the things I wear (lots of plain stuff with little or minimal branding). I agree with piejamas - for the past 10 years or so I've had a fairly minimalist style and basically just wear a T-shirt for any occasion that doesn't have a specific dress code. Semi retired now but that also applied to my work even though like 80% of the time it involved working with executives and business owners - maybe throw on a blazer if it's a more old school environment
Early in my career I definitely tried much harder, to the point where people around me were sometimes more interested in what I was wearing more than the work I was doing
That's the dream
Working remote in the great fashion capital of Tacoma, WA almost 99% of my dressing is aspirational
i think the differing takes on aspirational dressing on some level may be a generational; nowadays there's fewer linear pathways to success in career or happiness in life, and while that makes it harder to navigate it can be more rewarding once you're able to find a sense of individual style and purpose
That's a really great point. Especially with all the remote work and relaxed dress codes these days. Though I just turned 40 so hopefully there's not too huge of a generational gap between me and everyone else here lol
TMI Warning:
What I wear and what it signifies has absolutely taken up a disproportionally huge part of my thoughts considering how mid my style is. I want to wear clothes that help me fit in, but also stand out, but only stand out in a positive way (and literally everyone has to think it's positive), and show that I'm queer, but not too queer, and I want to impress strangers on the internet, and I want people to think I'm refined, but not pretentious, and I'm keeping up with trends, but not trying to be "how do you do fellow kids", and I don't want to look like I'm trying too hard, and--
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So yes, I extend my insecurities onto how I dress, and all these conflicting feelings have led to me dressing pretty safe. I've had to unpack these conflicting feelings in order to feel ok trying to figure out what I really want to do with my style (and I'm still figuring that out).
A lot of guys come on here and will say they're not thinking about what their clothing communicates, they just want to wear the "right" clothes. If you push them a little bit they say something that sounds like one of my distortions. This might seem so obvious to a bunch of you it doesn't need to be said, but we all communicate something with what we wear: it's just better to understand yourself and be intentional about it.
I think intentionality comes into it as well. I never set out to dress aspirationally, I just liked the idea of wearing nice suits and it happened to have a lot of benefits. I think for someone in my position, it would be unfair to tell people that they should only dress for themselves knowing that I didn't have to make any social/career sacrifices to do so
I really like this. It's different for everyone and the idea of doing it for one's self is great in theory but not everyone is fortunate enough to be in a position where that's possible. like saying money can't buy happiness - the only people who say that and really mean it are the people who have enough money and can afford to say it.
i more or less dress around not wanting to be pigeonholed into being perceived as conventionally masculine and somehow it's working :xd:
i have a longer thought somewhere now that ppl keep assuming my sexuality but im not sure how to articulate yet
I may have opened a pandora's box by even mentioning that
The dichotomy of "dressing for yourself" vs "dressing for others" is overstated. They're inherently linked
someone told me i gave off sapphic vibes and i don't think i've ever been so thrown off by a comment
like it's so oddly specific they must had actually thought about it and have a image in their head going off like pinterest
that sounds so overstated to the point of satire
I would consider this the biggest compliment. Being a 6'3" hairy dude makes it less likely to happen to me.
like intentionally redundant lmao
that's not abt clothing but perception in general but i do think personality/clothing is linked
wait my bad they just said sapphic :xd:
Dressing to express sexuality (in menswear) has come a long way in the last 10 years imo. I remember college friends thinking I was gay because I wore shoes that weren't old running sneakers and were made of leather.
I actively chose to dress badly until I was an adult because I was afraid people would think I was gay
I'm glad that nowadays we can accept that gay men dress badly too
There seems to be a bit of a resurgence of that recently, unfortunately
I've been experimenting with skinny jeans this year and there have definitely been some comments, especially from younger people
?
This happened a lot to me in my 20s when I was dressed up more than the general population in my age group. My response to people who asked if I was gay was always, "are you interested?"
I’m a minority and as I’ve gotten older, I’ve learned that even if I work in tech and have proximity to (white) communities, I’ll never “achieve” the status or be accepted for who I am. Much of my dressing in the 2010s was trad/prep-inspired because I loathed my otherness and wanted to fit into a mostly white and artsy liberal arts college.
As I developed my self-love, I felt more comfortable standing out in my personal style rather than trying to fit into a stereotype others put on me: (asian men are subservient, they’re quiet cause they should be happy to be here)
^super raw, and unprocessed thoughts but TLDR is that you’re only afforded status based on the intersectionality of your identities and style expression is self-love that paves the way to create “status” for yourself
may i ask why choose to wear nice suiting then?
this isn't meant to attack; given the role of suiting and tailoring in menswear especially lately i think it might be inherently aspirational, even if only to assimilate into an environment you hope to advance in
I'm mostly pragmatic with this.
When I can, I dress for mood. But the reality is if it's a workday and I have meetings, I'm going to keep it neat. I need to communicate well in every way, including what I'm wearing. It might not be communicating status (as in class status), but it could be my audience's version of professionalism or expertise, with a hint of my style (or not). Hopefully that'll match my mood that day, but either way I can't ignore it.
stereotypes definitely exist and we as a society will probably never be fully free of them, but i dont think thats a reason to feel limited. i'm a minority (asian) as well but i definitely don't fit in to the quiet/blend in/do as you're told stereotype. i can confidently say ive achieved "status" (whatever that means) through success in my work. i mentioned before that most of my work involved working with execs and business owners - predominantly older white males - and the only times ive experienced any kind of negativity due to me being a minority were when the people i worked with were also minorities
how much of that is environmental though
I'm sure if you look hard enough, you can find some motivation that wasn't just for me. I think like most people, it was in that stage of learning that you can care about what you wear and getting excited over assembling my own wardrobe for the first time. Once you've read a few MFA infographics, there's a certain appeal to experiencing a suit that follows all of the rules
hate to bear some harsh truth, but you can assimilate with the in crowd as much as you want (dressing minimally, not loudly as you say), but you’re still going to be othered when you’re not in the room.
i work with execs and business owners too, also predominately older white. i've gotten significantly further in my career and life not catering other's sensibilities.
every post i've made is something i've worn into the office
honestly life was easier when i realized i could choose to engage with people who valued my contributions off the rip
meh, they can talk all the shit they want behind my back. to me that says more about them than it does about me, and at the end of the day i'm happy with who i am and where i am in life. there's a reason i've been able to comfortably be semi retired at 39 while those people are likely going to be grinding away into their 60s
exactly this
someone mentioned wanting to work less and care less about others' opinions - coming to that realization and actually starting to live it was probably the biggest game changer for me when it came to professional success
I think of Ivy/aspirational dressing in two ways: Sunday best, and my experience wearing a school uniform (uniforms are extremely common in NZ).
I have taken a lot of my attitude towards aspirational clothes from my Grandfather and my Father. First is the idea that you wear your best with pride. Sometimes your best is rather shabby in some situations. But if all you own is a t shirt and jeans, you take care of them with pride and you don't make excuses. A lot of the staples of Sunday dress are luxury items and dear. The barrier to entry is price. And that excludes a lot of people. But Sunday best is an attitude of showing respect by making sure whatever you are wearing is clean, neat, and well presented. It's aspiration in its rawest form: whatever you have, it's polished.
One thing I love about Ivy styles is the way it can be used to show who and where you are comfortable. The same outfit can be changed depending on how relaxed you are feeling. In the company of people you like and relax around, the blazer comes off, the top button becomes undone. But those two things can be reversed very quickly.
When I think of aspirational dress, I think of the way my Grandfather wore his Sunday best. He was a blue collar worker his entire life. He owned a suit for Sunday's.
In short, I want to wear nice clothes. I even aspire to wear traditional menswear played straight: suits with black Oxfords polished until you could see them from space. But I want to place the act of doing so firmly within my own tradition of dressing, in a way that respects my own heritage: I want to do it in a way that looks like me, myself, Ocean, rather than a poor attempt at apeing a billionaire's Nepo baby.
@zeometer here's my take on why I want to wear traditional menswear, apart from the whole idea of assimilation. I would like to hear your thoughts.
i think we've totally derailed from what we were trying to talk about, but good for you king
One thing I have always struggled with is "who are my people." I spent almost the entirety of my time in HS as the one brown kid in a class of white ones.
The trouble is that I have always had a lot more common interests with them, than the other maori kids. I love Tolkien and I read Nietzsche. There are no places where I am naturally accepted among peers.
Which is why I have decided to place how I dress into my family's tradition of dressing, rather than the idea of fitting in with my peers.
this is what i meant when i said 'aspiration is fine when there's a foundation beyond the aesthetic' đź‘Ť it's clear how you're approaching clothes is a subset of how you approach the world, rather than letting the clothes dictate it and i'd imagine if you had a different cultural context the idea would translate through.
(i do disagree with the notion that ivy is synonymous with trad menswear but that's a different conversation)
That scene in succession with 'the gigantic bag'
I think one of the reasons I bounce off things like loafers, traditional suiting etc is the class aspect of it in the UK, feels like dressing like something I'm not.
(I'm also not a cowboy but I love westernwear, go figure)
I think fashion is inherently tied to signaling the same way it's inherently tied to self expression. I don't think either is inherently tied to status, however. Especially not social/class status.
Status and Culture was a really interesting read, but Marx's thesis was unfalsifiable and as a result I would take it more as a thought experiment than some deep truth about humanity
I might be misunderstanding you but certain items of clothing are to this day very much directly linked to status.
I believe people try to signal/express things other than status, such as personality. I guess you could say certain luxury items are "inherently" tied to wealth which is similar to status
They're seperate but linked (new money/old money), but nobody is dressing in the likes of royal formal attire
okay actually Elton John that one time
Many people do for sure, but it's not inherent. Tons of middle class people try to dress old money and plenty of new money people dress the same way they have before making it. It all depends what the person wants to express about themselves and a lot of it has nothing to do with status.
Are you sure
Sure that there are rich people who don't dress rich?
Genuine question then, if clothing isn't about status and especially not class status, then how do you explain dress codes such as this?
Makes me think of the “no hats, no colors, no vests” some places have presumably because of racism and biker boogeymen. They dont want young people in their business 🤔
Do yall think tech people wearing workwear counts as dressing aspirationally
Did you interpret my initial post as saying that clothing isn't about status?
I can parse this a few ways, but yes this is how these sentences read : "I think fashion is inherently tied to signaling the same way it's inherently tied to self expression. I don't think either is inherently tied to status, however. Especially not social/class status."
But I guess to me "self expression" are "signalling" are very much inherently linked to communicating varying forms of in group/out group status, most of which are bound up in class or social status signalling.
What I meant is that fashion is not inherently tied to status. Many people and institutions use fashion as a way to gatekeep and otherwise demonstrate their social status, but I think that's far from universal
I would never deny that many WASP country club types use clothing to demonstrate their wealth, but many also dress to try to hide their wealth or look more appealing/trustworthy to people of a lower class.
I think Marx made a really good point about how a lot of times people signal their status within a subculture through fashion (i.e. dressing like a goth or a stoner, etc) which is separate from broader social hierarchies. But I think even that is only true to a point.
Ya
but many also dress to try to hide their wealth or look more appealing/trustworthy to people of a lower class.How is this not about status?
It's not but it's a counter to the idea that fashion is signaling status. I gave examples later that were tied to things unrelated to status altogether
I think you're using a very narrow interpretation of status personally
Maybe? I emphasized class status since a lot of the comments I saw before seemed to be about it but I read Status and Culture and tried to use it the same way Marx did by including subcultural status. I feel like no one has said anything that is against anything I've claimed, which is why I'm confused about why there's so much pushback. Maybe it would help if I state the inverse position that I disagree with:
Fashion primarily exists for people to signal their social status to others. There is no way to detach the way someone dresses from their status within broader culture and their subculturesDo either of you( @ll.beansandrice , @Kareem Gom Jabbar ,@cdfchopper) agree with the above statement? Because if not then we are probably agreeing more than disagreeing.
The only word I really disagree with is "primarily". What you wear inherently sends various in/out group and status signals to other people (or they will apply their own). If I wanted to dress in a way that didn't send any of those signals, what would I wear? I can't think of what that outfit would be.
Do you think intent, conscious or otherwise, matters? I think there's a difference between someone signaling and their fashion happening to signal something
That doesn't really have any bearing on your previous statement:
What I meant is that fashion is not inherently tied to status.Probably too esoteric, but I don't think it's possible to dress without any intention either I'm likely falling into some philosophical trap that I don't know the name for, but I just don't see how the clothes you wear can send no signals about your status/culture/group/etc. So in that sense the clothes you wear are inherently tied to status signals
Then it's a difference of severity. I don't think the primary motivator for fashion is to signal status to others. I think many people, especially in a place like this, engage in fashion to achieve some internal congruence of how they see themselves. In that regard I should have said "primarily about" instead of "inherently tied to".
I am still not convinced on the "inherently tied to" bit but that's more because it's an unfalsifiable statement. How would you ever disprove that something isn't about status? Is there a prediction one could make about how someone will dress that could be proven wrong? I can't prove something unfalsifiable wrong by definition but that also makes it uninteresting to talk about.
It's not unfalsifiable. It's not like you're trying to prove that something doesn't exist. If there's even a single outfit that doesn't send any status signals then it's not inherent. But even white canvas sneakers, jeans, and a white tee send signals.
Which style of sneakers did you chose? How worn are they? What's the fit and wash of the denim? What's the style of the tee? Is it lightweight with a long hem line or is it a vintage style with shorter sleeves?
What signals are received (or even sent) also depends on the context. Wearing that outfit to a brewery is different than wearing it to a white collar business conference which is different from wearing it to a woodworking conference.
I just don't see any way that you can divorce your clothing from these status signals. If you chose to explicitly ignore them and wear things that you enjoy as others have mentioned sends an even stronger set of signals to many people.
That's also like one of the main purposes of fashion. Ivy as a style exists because of these status signals.