Appropriation vs. Appreciation - Topic of the day 1/30/24
fashion takes inspiration from and incorporates a wide variety of references and cultures. Is there a place you'd draw the line, where fashion has gone too far? Or is it more complicated than that?
248 Replies
I’m kinda on the side of “I know it when I see it” and always ready to be wrong
I’m a free floating being of no specific culture so I just wear stuff that has long been normalized
I think there is a difference between culturally significant items and clothes in that regard
Clothing can absolutely be culturally significant though
And often is
Yes maybe I phrased that wrong what I mean is the difference between something that people wear or something with specific religious significance
even just things people wear can be culturally significant and can be appropriated. indigenous fashion in... well, all of the americas are constantly ripped from their cultural context and reappropriated for wealthy, white buyers
Hey it’s not just America doing that it’s also Kapital
General rule of thumb is that appreciation tips over into appropriation when there is profit to be made. Profit can look like money, power, influence, notoriety, etc and is usually more significant at larger scales but is easier to identify/police at smaller scales.
sorry, I meant indigenous groups in the americas are often appropriated, not that only americans are doin it
Oh yeah that’s my misread
Usually there's an element of cultural/socioeconomic power dynamics at play with appropriation as well. These are usually unidirectional but not always.
i'm willing to make an ad hoc judgment call
i'm black and american, the idea of culture is a minefield
I feel like a very common discourse I see is that "people in XYZ country doesn't mean so idk why XYZ-Americans whine" but XYZ are literally the fucking majority culture in their country
ralph lauren working with Native designers is something that should've been done from the beginning. 2023 is soo late
big agree
As a recovered noragi wearer this is a good thread for me
And I don't think it's an hard concept either but it feels like a ridiculously common statement
my gripe is when its a "i discovered this" rather than a focus on the craft workers that made it and a focus on the history of it. im not saying people cant just do nothing if its not within their culture but the distinction is just, hey this is cool im going to make it my own, rather than, hey this is cool, i want other people to know why its cool as well and spread the culture, while appreciating the artisans.
Ya that's what I'm talking about
Good lil summary
i expect the bare minimum of any creative working outside of their culture to consult with and compensate people from within the culture they are pulling from - alternatively they can join that culture and speak from the inside.
i think if there's sufficient adaptation to an item or idea then it shies away from approprition
Just to stir the pot, is this appreciation or appropriation?
i mean what else is a guy in the 1950s-60s supposed to wear?
of the two choices appreciation
i don't see the point of this devils advocate baiting
Given it's a style born in elite universities, who cares?
this seems like thinly veiled whataboutism and its only because I know you I'm assuming it isn't
hot take
there's a big difference between me wearing a native american headdress
and a black guy wearing an ocbd
being rich isn't a culture
If you read the book you would realize why this question doesnt make any sense
Will do. It's on my list
Dressing to the style of elites to have your voice heard in a time of massive political and social change really doesnt exist on the spectrum of appropriation and appreciation.
Like on the base definition of the word it is appropriation but its not the same appropriation that we’re chatting about here
adjacent question-
Also on my list to read
would the adoption of heritage americana in japan be considered appropriation or/and a consequence of american culture influencing japan
i think it comes down to the power dynamic
There is probably a larger conversation there as Sinbad said
I think a big part of what makes any given appropriation harmful or not is the ability of the appropriated to define their own narrative.
A big question at the heart of this that I think is worth asking, how do you define what culture is your own?
I really liked zadie smiths essay on the question in Harper’s
As far as problematizing it
bode copy pasta when
I was writing my thesis on this but i closed the app and none of it saved
I haven’t seen this
this is a rather succinct expression for why black ivy isn't appropriation
There's both the power dynamic involved between the US and Japan at the time and the fact that Japan was mostly genuinely preserving and appreciating the American styles and items in a way that (to me) feels very different than examples of appropriation. Certainly a bit of cosplay type stuff involved but no one is going to claim that LHS are religiously significant unlike some Native stuff that's been ripped from its cultural roots thanks to genocide and lots of other stuff
You also often end up with things that can v much feel like appropriation but aren't really. Like American Chinese food and historic Navajo Jewelry styles
AmChi catching strays💀
Curious what you mean about Navajo jewelry
is it appropriation if I get really high and eat a box of communion wafers
I wrote a big long paper on exoticism is western fashion and I’m too tired to do it again
I use my cringe meter to tell if something feels like appropriation
But it is not only appropriation but also cringe
Compared to a lot of other native things (headresses being the most obvious example) the jewelry was created as a result of trading with Europeans. They used motifs and such from their cultures but generally they're not like religious items. They were made to be sold and traded with white people and other tribes bc they had no use for the silver coins they got
Appropriation and appreciation are a distinction without a difference as it pertains to this convo. Ametora is a story about cultural appropriation definitionally but calling it that ignores the undercurrent story of an occupied post war japan which has had its cultural identity stripped away. In general i feel like people who say nuh uh this is appreciation are doing so as a deflection. Not all appropriation is bad, but theres a reason you can be a sexy nun on halloween but putting on a native american headdress will get you kicked out of the halloween party. Hiding behind “appreciation” or saying what about ametora ignores the spirit of the question.
I would warn you against this because especially in a fashion context some appropriation is well executed by incredibly talented designers. It will look good but still very much be appropriation
Yah what weeg said
I err on the opposite side. Im Indian
Yeah, I think "appropriation" has a broad definition according to the dictionary, and it makes discussion difficult because we all bring slightly different connotations to it.
And the "bad" appropriators almost certainly hide behind appreciation.
Wasn’t aware. Clear example of my cringe meter leading me astray. I see turquoise and silver on a white dude and I cringe a little
Interesting, can you elaborate on what makes you view that differently?
That is not to say it can’t be cringey
Our culture has been commodified so much that im just gun shy
Feel that way too as a south Asian person
Think it’s something that can’t really be defined easily or at all. Can only speak from my experiences but I’m half native and half white, even have the stupid card that says I’m native and some days it even feels like im appropriating my own culture
(or that I is a white dude who just moved to Colorado less than five years ago am correct)
My kids are going to go through something similar and all I can think of telling them is that culture is additive, not subtractive
In case of Ametora there are two nations at play one used to be an empire the other is the US
Yeah in classic mixed race fashion I don’t have anything that I would point to as my own heritage besides just like “stuff my mom does” so I don’t feel entitled to any cultural garb
Plus the whole power dynamic kinda breaks down for many examples as there often isn't one
re ametora i asked about ametora less about the japanese adopting americana style post-war because and more americans' reaction and response to japanese made denim
ye well the response is generally that it’s dope
I don’t think there is anything resembling a cohesive American cultural group to have an opinion on Japanese denim
If anything you end up with weebs that are denim heads
But in that case the pants aren’t the issue
Most Americans response to Japanese Denim is ‘I love that song’
That is kinda what I mean with religously relevant dress and basic clothes
real
r/rawdenim isn't a "cohesive American cultural group"? 🙂
I feel like the Japan thing is a different thing regarding the globalization of American culture
I would argue that the etymology of the word may not define the origin of the item
Yeah, we're like 4 steps removed at this point. France --> American working class --> American middle class --> Japan
Mariam Webster’s dictionary defines…
Denim = serge de Nimes.
Something something Indigo is from subtropical areas and has been used to dye twill weaves for AGES.
^
That
Even if we were talking about colonized and colonizing nations basically both the US and Japan are broadly in the same category
Apart from the whole occupation part, which, between the two of them went one way.
Generally yes but in the context in which Japan adopted Americana and other American quirks of life no
Until the you know…
You can’t just blow it out to all of history
So was Germany colonized after WW2?
Is this bait?
Did I say colonization and occupation are the same thing though? It's a power dynamic for sure.
"Colonization" seems a little like "appropriation" in that people attach all kinds of connotations to the word.
Basically yes. But my point is that the situation ofJapan and Germany was broadly simmilar after WW2
Idt the Germans had radiation experiments run on them
I disagree in that Germany was allowed to retain much of its cultural capital whereas Japan had much more of a cultural reset
No, they were just burnt to a crisp with incendiaries.
Germany has strange artifacts of Americanisation of it's own for sure though. Just not so much in a clothing style codified in a book we seem to love for some reason
And yet Germany has, IMO, done a much better job accepting responsibility for their actions in WW2 than Japan has.
tangent
Honestly the whole Prussian militaristic culture was kinda removed
I feel like we are straying from the topic a bit
Don’t need a history PhD to know that wearing a kimono is different than a pair of sugar canes
One is clearly more fashionable
People dress up as my culture solely to get drunk and I'm fine with that. Just to get this back on track
what that mean
Jesus christ
Although not really my culture as I'm Swabian not Bavarian
One facet of this debate that sometimes goes unmentioned is how diasporic communities lay claim to their cultural signifiers differently than the people still living in the home country. Japanese american’s might have a very different reaction to white people wearing kimonos than the broad acceptance of cultural exports coming from folks in japan
Very good point
Yeah I’ve definitely noticed the same among south-Asian diaspora here vs myself
I’m team wear whatever the fuck you want as long as it’s not brown face
But I know diaspora here has sometimes felt very differently
I was gonna say, most Japanese people from Japan don’t really care but Japanese Americans are constantly under pressure to assimilate to the majority culture here in the US and probably identify with their cultural clothing (or food or language or customs) in a different way than people on the mainland do
I think about it in terms of my identity being formed as not a minority
https://www.vogue.in/fashion/content/the-grey-area-between-cultural-appropriation-and-appreciation
Some banger grey area fits in here
Vogue India
The grey area between cultural appropriation and appreciation
Kim Kardashian and North West’s nose rings, Adele’s Bantu Knots, Sarah Jessica Parker’s misinformed sari moment in And Just Like That…How far is too far?
I do think its worth examining where the fashion world kind looks the other way
JPG breathing heavy rn
I was thinking galliano for sure
Bode breathing heavy too
Lagerfeld breathing heavy
oh wait
rip bozo
What do yall think of vintage dudes wearing squash blossoms
Bode I’m forgiving because her partner is also a creative director no?
Tbh im talking out of my ass a bit ive just heard discourse on Bode being appropriative
maria grazia chiuri deserves the discourse emily bode gets
She def gets flak but the more I listen/read the more it seemed like an easy way to hate someone with a wealthy background and an easy success story
Fair enough i’ll have to read up more on it
Yeah her husband's Indian, and I think he has some involvement with the brand
Their wedding looked amazing
indian background* also Canadian
Vogue
Emily Bode and Aaron Aujla Made (Almost) Everything for Their At-Ho...
Every detail was deeply personal for the designer couple.
some of the criticisms about her appropriating say
Queens Indians are more Indian than Delhi Indians don’t @ me
african american quilt culture
has validity that her partner doesnt take away
But also like all over the Adirondack’s no?
Where I assume she spent a lot of summers as a rich kid
Antonio’s shit is way more appropriative (imo) and he gets less shit I think
It comes back to a point someone made prior about appropriation vs appreciation being related to the minority group's representation in the matter. I don't follow bode's design history deeply but the appropriation / appreciation aspect isn't necessarily voided by her partner's ethnicity
Less about him being her partner and more about him being a creative director in the brand
Yes, I think that distinction is key because there's representation
This just came up, haven’t watched it yet https://youtu.be/6P7FEmMgA8Q?si=uqXLPzEV80K6uKbs
David Zwirner
YouTube
Emily Bode, Aaron Aujla, and Ben Bloomstein: On Appropriation | PRO...
Emily Bode, of the Bode luxury menswear brand, along with Aaron Aujla and Ben Bloomstein, of Green River Project design studio, discuss the role of appropriation in fashion and interior design with PROGRAM host Helen Molesworth.
This episode of PROGRAM was originally live-streamed on June 10, 2021.
https://www.davidzwirner.com/viewing-room/20...
Smeg fridge in the back looking smug as fuck
Most criticisms of bode I think generally stem from how the brand is written about and how most people interact with it
How we feel about cowichans
Preference for more “original” designs vs new designs in cowichan form ala this 18east monstrosity that showed up in my inbox just now.
I admit it’s an item type I know very little about besides that I’m a slut for knits
I did a little digging for fun a while ago just because I like them so much. Lots of problematic history of knitting sweaters and cardigans being taught by euro settlers in “schools” although there was already a long history of knitting blankets out of mountain goat and dog hair
So when they’re sold as cowichan inspired but no money is going to the Canadians I feel a little weird
But I’m a Kanata slut, so maybe I’ll just find a way to defend whatever I like
the modern cowichan tribes do still produce sweaters commercially if people want guilt free cowichans
https://cowichantribes.com/presence-valley/cowichan-entrepreneurs/arts-and-crafts
Oh that’s cool
as someone culturally illiterate, the symbolism of the squash blossom varies (is it for protection, is it for fertility?) and the origin is rather muddied regarding how much the spanish impacted it...i can see the call that this is appropriation but i can easily see someone viewing it as an ordinary part of that culture
source for above https://nationaljeweler.com/articles/9551-the-history-behind-the-squash-blossom-necklace
nationaljeweler.com
The History Behind … The Squash Blossom Necklace
The latest installment in our antique jewelry series examines the iconic Native American design.
i dont fw bode because emily hides behind the conceit of "preserving culture" while selling knits for 2k
the ethnicity of her partner and creative director has nothing to do with that, and doesnt excuse her practice to me
That’s an entirely valid argument I think
I feel like this is a lot of brands tbh
I don’t really have a horse in that particular race.
Tho I don’t exactly disagree
it's a lot of brands yeah, but idk maybe it's just because ive seen her too much it's way too white savior for me
I just dk if I find it particularly unique
It’s also too expensive for me to really think about
Like beans said I think thats how fashion media writes about her vs how the brand actually presents itself
Bode had always read as white savior to me as well but idk if that’s just the reporting around her
I mean she literally uses those words in that interview linked above
Welp
Like 10 mins in lmao
Oof
Nice to confirm my assumptions then lol
The article about her wedding was weird
Yeah but it was so goddamn pretty
That’s the part that hurts the most lol
pretty things can also be problematic
see waves hands
gonna snatch a quote out of my annotated bibliography from a recent essay
Hahaha
“Fashion’s penchant for imitating culture reinforces the idea that cultural dress is fabulous and exotic when worn by some, but backward when worn by minorities. Chanel can show a faux-Indian ‘Paris-Bombay’ collection at Paris’s Grand Palais. Hermes can sell saris costing from $18000 to $100000, but the same styles when sold or worn by Indians are considered ‘backward.’”
i don’t see how emily bode personally is perpetrating this tho
Haha there’s def tons to inspect with Bode, I just had to push back on, “Bode steals India”
But like, is that still true?
I don’t know enough if she’s actually preserving anything or mostly marking up existing stuff for white people
South Asians wear saris to red carpet shit all the time and are seen as equally glamorous as anyone else I think
this is pulled from a larger tangent on exoticism
I see your point, and can def see it being true for the majority of history
There’s a guy in Santa Fe that deals in real historic Navajo jewelry and the project helps fund scholarships for folks in the reservations. Those he sells for $$$$ but that’s obviously different
I originally posted about cowichans here because their seemed to be some interesting cultural crossover of people who moved to Canada from Scotland sharing knitting techniques and vice versa. However further reading showed some problematic stuff with this knitting style being forced on people by religious organisations
as far as im concerned, that's advocacy
i think the saint laurent wrap dress is still percieved as 'fashion' whereas if its not filtered through a european fashion label it's just 'culture'
Not sure I understand, can you dumb that down for me?
it's equity imo, and also interesting given that i just heard bode justify her perceived appropriation as a fear of losing the traditions, etc of these cultures
cultures that still exist, too.
cultures that are being practiced and don't cost 2k to partake in.
that was aggressively self congratulatory in a way that was wild to me
Rich kids man
not only are these ACTIVE cultures helpless without her upcharging the fuck out of a pair of pants but she has to do it because the rest of the industry won't 😭
essentially an extension of the idea that fashion is something that europeans do and 'cultural dress'is something the rest of the world does
Gotcha
and that 'cultural dress' becomes 'fashion' with the help of the european
Have we covered that something can look bad and not be appropriative
Sorry I'm not keeping up today
Hhahahaha
history and culture are made by the winners, after all 🙃
it's still very commonly the case that historic european art is for art museums and historic art by the rest of the world is for natural history musems
which is tangential but relevant here
Uh, aren’t natural history museums where rocks and bones and shit are?
it should be...
Oh dear
Yeah definitely
a lot of petroglyphs in the americas have been taken off the rocks and shipped off to museums
Huh, and those aren’t in art museums primarily?
off the top of my head the Carnegie Museum system keeps their (substantial) petroglyphs collection in the CMNH
they have Anthropology sections
It’s been a while
which tend to feature native art prominently
not just ancient art as well but like incan art
which any art museum in europe will carry european art older than
White people: It's on a rock so it goes in the rock museum
except when the rock is in europe, then it's a protected park 👍
There are some petroglyphs in Australia that are in a park, not a museum. They are somewhat remote, though.
Lots in Utah too
will note in the interest of fairness that items of anthropological significance like the Winnemuca Lake Petroglyphs in Nevada are very well protected and in that case under tribal administration
The US is better about this now. Lots of historical sites, national monuments, etc. with the goal of keeping all of that stuff preserved in the geographic context
although historically that has not been the case of course
my main question with appropriation is "what is even the point?"
oh idk about tribal admin actually
there are so many other ideas, why limit yourself to that specific thing, especially if there's no cultural context for it
although its very telling that the petroglyphs aren't protected due to artistic merit but rather for anthro reasons
natural history/art thing again
bode justified her actions as a way to protect the culture from seeming extinction, rather than highlighting the artistry involved...it's a circle
Was working on how to phrase this but yeah
in that case it also treats the appropriated group as an abstraction rather than (in that case) a very real, very tangible thing
The idea that Emily is ‘saving’ or ‘upcycling’ a thriving (in some cases) artistic tradition by moving it up the ladders of racial and class stratification for entirely her own benefit is a little disturbing to me
the framing of the question was weird to me too, why does culture need to be upcycled?
which i guess is my entire thesis on this
they won't say the reason out loud
When she does it it’s not culture it’s fashion
The term upcycling in this context is gross, implying that the cultures don't have intrinsic value and need some BS designer spin on it
Because she’s a first in last out
Quarterbacky
Lunch pail
Sneaky athletic
Type of designer
First time I've heard lunch pail used this way
i was attempting to think an answer for this and the only one i got was that weird stretch in the 10s where collections riffed off the nazis and holocaust
Sports commentators do it a lot to describe white players in football and basketball (along with the others in adaptation's list)
Had honestly never heard it like that. Virginia Tech is famous for their "lunch pail" defense which I think has something to do with a "blue collar" approach to defense whatever that means? ad copy from universities is weird
It definitely seems different when applied to a single player rather than the entire defensive unit but man that kinda sucks. I like the VT lunch pail
I mean it’s not always a dogwhistle kinda thing
yeah but "blue collar mentality" feels kinda icky to me. I hadn't read that bit about it before
It's significant to VT's culture separately from how announcers tend to use it tho
Definitely
It kind of exists just as satire nowadays, announcers are pretty self aware of it
yeah I haven't heard "sneaky athletic" in a while lol
Throwback to when HC elect Brent Pry said he was bringing back the lunch pail defense and Maryland scored a 70yrd TD against as he was saying it
Thanks for all the thought provoking posts so far, I have really appreciated reading them. I have a bunch of complicated thoughts about specifically the appropriation of Native American jewelry that I am curious about others' takes on. I have noticed that the answer to "should I wear it?" is usually "if it was made by and supports a Native American artist, yes" but I'm unconvinced this tells the whole story. I feel like the default assumption when someone wears something from a historically persecuted or otherwise minority culture that they don't belong to is that it is a form of appropriation - to zeometer's point, why have you chosen to do so? From an outsider's perspective (which I think is what's relevant here as a test for what is or looks like appropriation, both of which are important imo) they don't know if a particular item was purchased supporting a Native American artist or not, so it kinda feels to me like a post hoc justification rather than legitimate celebration, at least to that outside party (see "I cringe when I see white men with turquoise" (paraphrasing)).
Like, why should someone be able to choose to wear jewelry from a culture that is not their own? However, I see great benefit in supporting an artist making the art from that culture, but does this actually address all of the other complicated dimensions of appropriation? It feels like a bit of a catch 22.
I think the question of appropriation vs appreciation can be settled with "is this authentic". Appropriation to my mind is bad because it's a way of... willfully misusing a cultural artifact or style for profit by people with no connection to that culture.
I'm from NZ so I'll give a NZ example. There's a difference between wearing pounamu jewelry manufactured somewhere overseas and sold as authentic with no thought or care given to the culture it is meant to represent, as opposed to buying it from Ngai Tahu.
Similarly, I feel like a lot of the "image" associated with Native American jewelry, at least in a more masculine context as worn by white people, is the ideal of the American Southwest -- rugged individualism, manifest destiny, etc. But these ideals arise from the displacement and genocide of Native Americans. So, again, I see great benefit in supporting Native American artists, but does it perpetuate a harmful historical image? Worn certain ways (see certain images from certain Western inspo albums on reddit) I think it does perpetuate those ideals that directly resulted from subjugation of people from the culture from which the items arose. Again, feels like a major catch 22.
This makes sense and I think is a good way to think about it. However, I also imagine an implicit conversation that happens when someone from that culture sees someone else wearing such jewelry, and potential doubts regarding good intent. Does that take place at all? How much does that matter?
This is just one small facet of appropriation. It's not okay for a white dude to wear an authentic Native Headdress to the season opener KC Chiefs game
Similarly with Bode. She's undeniably using authentic fabrics, designs, and techniques and has the knowledge base to do it "authentically" but she and the brand still have issues
Worn in certain ways, you look like a dick. This applies to a lot of clothing though. Like. I don't know of any situation where wearing a morning suit wouldn't make you look like a dick.
...but I agree and admit that the stakes are much higher when racism can be implicit in the clothing.
One thing that should be added to the pounamu example I gave was that as part of the treaty settlement, Ngai Tahu was given the exclusive right to source it in NZ--which means there isn't an industry that uses NZ pounamu that doesn't go through the tribe. (This isn't to say there isn't an industry that manufactures different imitations made with nephrite from overseas) which... I suppose makes it different to the situation overseas.
That's really cool to learn, is that settlement a recent thing?
Having the community that developed a fabric, jewelery, style, pattern, etc have legal ownership over that entity seems like a really important thing
It's a shame that it's not commonplace
um?
oh it didn't preview
Did I miss the topic somehow?
Just a slightly related thing that had been said. That hard link came off way more diskish than I meant
I don't think this is generally true. Historic Navajo jewelry is an integral part of Western/Southwestern US culture. Any culture and history is going to have problematic elements to it. But it's more akin to eating chinese food than it is to wearing a native headdress imo
...
But I want to also add my two cents to the whole idea of "why would someone want to wear this garment". And... I think that the historical and continued exportation of western styles--in ways that replace indigenous styles and garments--is a crying shame. It feels like a monoculture of continued imitation of the colonial powers. Historically, maori changed massively to accomadate western culture--everything from a widespread refusal to teach their children maori (because English was the language of power and prestige) to adopting western dress. In an ideal world the same level of formality in clothes (i.e Kakahu Kiwi, which is a kiwifeather cloak--bloody expensive, and very prestigous) would be equated to that of a suit. But it isn't. In an ideal non-racist world cultural exports would be a two-way street. There would ideally be a lot more variety in clothes and forms of clothes and acceptance of different clothes in different styles.
Maybe it would be enough to wear xyz garment because you thought it looked pretty.
But we do not live in such an ideal world. Such an ideal world is based on an ideal of mutual respect between cultures.
I don't know. I just remember once looking at some traditional maori garments in a museum and thinking "why can't we have nice things".
I don't exactly follow what thesis you're working with tbh "why would someone want to wear this garment"
Oh it was earlier mentioned that why would someone outside of the culture said garment originated would want to wear it.
And so I thought it was implied that one would need a reason above and beyond "it looked cool".
Ah
Ty
usage of native american motifs by japanese brands is complicated
Thanks, I saw your earlier message about Navajo jewelry developing through trade with Europeans and thought that was very informative. I think it gets at a deeper question that I had which is "who am I as a potential appropriator to determine what is instead appreciation", but maybe that's the wrong way to look at it, and the right question is "what was the intent of the creator", such as the difference between jewelry and headdresses that you pointed out
I think a lot of the time the inspiration is various 20th century american subcultures who adopted the imagery for various reasons rather than indigenous groups themselves but idk if this kind of second-order use of imagery rlly softens the blow
Its really not
on the other hand there's def ppl like haruki nakamura who take it much more seriously
Its still cringe and disrespectful
but all the photoshoots w white guys in front of teepees
still make me cringe a bit
popping in to say Story MFG are cooler than Bode
Its a shame there aren't more Ainu designers out of Japan showcasing their motifs, as they've some incredibly beautiful designs