Serious issues with belt tension/IS after installing FMMM mod
Hi all,
As the title states I just got done installing the FMMM mod and am noticing a drastic decline in my belt tension graph and IS. What could be causing this?
126 Replies
I tightened things up a bit and im getting better IS graphs I think but my belt tension looks strange. Am I over tightening my belts?
eastern-cyan•16mo ago
you broke somethin in the eva carriage or you have loose bolts/nuts
flat-fuchsia•16mo ago
You lucky to have 2 spikes, I have only one 😉
Damn that sucks. I'll disassemble the EVA carriage and see if anything is broken/loose. Should locktite be used on the screws for the eva carriage? Just for clarity do you mean loose bolts in the EVA carriage or just in general?
I feel very lucky 😭😜
eastern-cyan•16mo ago
no loctite, to be honest at how bad it is something is really vibrating, Do a belt measure and listen the printer, listen where the vibration is coming from
it shouldn't be any rattling noise
Ah ok, I definitely heard rattling when I ran the test last night. I think it was coming from the EVA carriage. Thank you very much for the advice!
eastern-cyan•16mo ago
👍
flat-fuchsia•16mo ago
I'm fighting https://discord.com/channels/582187371529764864/1133517006734377021 for more than month and nothing helps, you will probably find the issue, at least you have two peaks 😉
Is two peaks good? I thought we wanted less spikes?
flat-fuchsia•16mo ago
Well, everyone on this server agree you should have two (and maybe 3rd around 125 Hz which is toolhead). I don't know why, I have 1.5 at best 🙂
For me you graphs looks awesome, I'll be happy to have the same
(you still have to find the reason of this above 100 Hz)
I saw in a previous post that above 100 Hz means something is loose right?
eastern-cyan•16mo ago
because it is a complex problem even if it seems like not.
Frame squareness, rail lubing, check motion without belt installed, check after tightening the belts the distance x rail-front extrusion
belt tension is the last thing it matters when the graphs look so bad
flat-fuchsia•16mo ago
Absolutely everything was checked, trust me. But let's not hijack topic 🙂
eastern-cyan•16mo ago
if you say so 👍
@b3lmans Should the x carriage move when I move the y axis by hand? Since I switched to fmmm it does not but it did before
I'm wondering if I'm not tightening the belts enough. I noticed a lot of rattling from the XY joiners when I do the belt tension test
Ahhhh actually you were right, I found two screws in the extruder mount that were completely loose as they were not fastening to anything. I'm hoping those were the cause of the extra vibrations. I'm going to take a break for a few days from the Ratrig project. Been working on it everyday for the past few weeks and starting to get a bit exhausted. Will let you know what the new graphs look like when I start up again
@b3lmans @asychev I'm back fellas, here is my new graph. I think this is looking good right?
eastern-cyan•16mo ago
hi,
Not really..you stil have that peak at 105-110
Rip. I was hoping to avoid having to do so much disassembly but I'm thinking I need to rebuild the whole EVA carriage.
Having peaks at 100+ usually means there's a problem with EVA right?
eastern-cyan•16mo ago
yes
flat-fuchsia•16mo ago
Are you satisfied with print quality? If yes, DON'T touch it 🙂 I have similar issues with graphs and regret my attempts to fix them, so much wasted time for just perfectionism
Luckily EVA reassembly is pretty quick. If reassembly doesn't fix the graphs then yeah I'll probably move on
Rebuilt EVA and I did notice a lot of mistakes that I made the first time. Is this graph any better?
@b3lmans @asychev
eastern-cyan•16mo ago
yes it is
👍
tension the upper belt a bit more, and when you adjust the belts, do it in small increments at a time (quarter turn)
or even less than quarter of a turn, just a bit to see that the bolt rotated a bit
In that last graph I didn't have the 4028 mount in yet since I needed to reprint it. The last one had issues where the fan would not sit flush against it, so the graph changed slightly since then. This is the latest graph with the entire eva assembly complete.
I also did a very slight tighten of the upper belt like you suggested
eastern-cyan•16mo ago
not well, sort the 4028
Atleast I know where the issue is coming from now 😄. I can visibly see the end connecting to the ducts is not flush. I may have to reprint it again in a different orientation. I'm also considering just using kapton tape to hold those pieces together better
How's this one?
eastern-cyan•16mo ago
bad, the belt tensions look like being equal but something is still ratling
flat-fuchsia•16mo ago
I told you 🙂
I'm wondering if the problem is coming from the XY joiners
I just want to finish this build out strong 
eastern-cyan•16mo ago
@asychev why this bad attitude mate? If you don't know how and can't do it let others try.
is the distance between x rail and front extrusion equal both sides?
flat-fuchsia•16mo ago
Just adding another angle of view. Unfortunately I also suffer from similar issues and nothing helps, but prints are quite good and maybe it is not worth efforts
eastern-cyan•16mo ago
this is his thread.
flat-fuchsia•16mo ago
Then lets allow him to decide 😉
In my case this big spike around 100 was from weak EVA, I reprinted everything with more walls/infill and also changed fan shroud to shorter one, this all kinda help. Also check do X rail carriage have play on the rail? Mine has, quite pronounced
I printed everything with RR recommended infill and walls. What settings did you end up going with?
It is, I check that whenever I change tensions. Idk if the problem stems from the 4028 still. My graph was acceptable until I put that back on. I'm also wondering if it may be the wiring from the hotend rattling against the carriage due to poor wire management. I'll send a picture of my hotend wiring when I get home from work.
I really want to figure this out because a lot of hard work went into building this printer and I want it to work as best as possible. I'm not ready to throw in the towel yet 😃
flat-fuchsia•16mo ago
5 walls, 40% gyroid
eastern-cyan•16mo ago
ok,post the picture here
eastern-cyan•16mo ago
have you tighten the fan shroud bottom bolt? that looks like a gap
eastern-cyan•16mo ago
@vitamin_g42069
Hmmm you're right. I have tightened them, I think any tighter might crack the pieces. I think I need to reprint those parts without a brim.
eastern-cyan•16mo ago
if they are warped you should reprint them
squish the a bit more on the build plate if it is abs and print slower
It's ASA and I notice that when I print using supports for the horns the areas that are printed on the supports have a bad finish. I may have to rethink how to print those parts. Also I haven't cal'd my ender in months so I'll do that first and reprint those parts and do a fit test before mounting them
Are these acceptable?
I think it's about the best my ender 3 can do
@b3lmans
eastern-cyan•16mo ago
indeed better, the gap is almost gone and bet will be fine once you mount/toghten them 👍
Awesome! Still waiting on the front to print then I'll remount everything. Will share the graph later today
No luck unfortunately
The parts all look super flush now too
flat-fuchsia•16mo ago
It is probably fan shaft woble itself, try do perform measurements with fan spinning at least 50%. And I still suggest to configure input shaper and print some parts to check actual results 🙂
I'll give that a shot. I was waiting to add the rest of my enclosure panels before trying prints. Dont have the spool holder mounted yet either
can the issue not be coming from the idlers or xy joiners? I dont hear any rattling from the eva carriage but rattling from the joiners
@b3lmans @asychev Hows this one?
eastern-cyan•16mo ago
better because you have 2 peaks but everything after points at something loose, check all the bolts and nuts on the printer
My whole base panel never got tightened down, and there were a lot of other screws all around the printer that were a bit loose. Going to run the test again
Weird im getting a larger spike at 125 now with the lower belt
Gotta head to bed, but it looks like we are improving, yeah?
eastern-cyan•16mo ago
eastern-cyan•16mo ago
this is how you want them to look like
Ah ok. Thanks very much for your help brother. I don't think I can get a graph that good unfortunately. Can't think where the problems are coming from at this point.
Is this acceptable?
I know its not as good as what you posted but its gotta be close
eastern-cyan•16mo ago
the first part of your graph looks amazing. The part after 65hz is bad, not as bad as it was at the start, is way better but can be improved. Something is rattling, listen the printer while doing tests or while printing
have you printed a test to check the quality?
Printing a cube now. I do hear rattling but I can't quite make out where it's coming from. One thing I have trouble with is the shroud of the eva carriage. I don't think I tighten it enough but it seems very prone to breaking the screw holes
eastern-cyan•16mo ago
after you print it install this script
https://github.com/worksasintended/klipper_linear_movement_analysis
GitHub
GitHub - worksasintended/klipper_linear_movement_analysis
Contribute to worksasintended/klipper_linear_movement_analysis development by creating an account on GitHub.
eastern-cyan•16mo ago
after you install it send this command in console "MEASURE_LINEAR_VIBRATIONS_RANGE VMIN=100 VMAX=260"
you will have a new folder in your machine settings called "linear motion" or "linear analysis" and you will get 4 pictures, post them here
Will do, but likely can't until tomorrow. Gotta get to work early tomorrow 😭
eastern-cyan•16mo ago
know the feeling 😂
flat-fuchsia•16mo ago
Is it different from what already included with RatOS?
eastern-cyan•16mo ago
please post in your thread
Here's the cube that just got done. Printed at 10k accel in ASA. It's under extrudering a good amount, but I have not done any filament calibrations yet. I don't see any ringing
Actually NVM I do see some ringing on the Y
flat-fuchsia•16mo ago
You did shaper calibration?
Yep
flat-fuchsia•16mo ago
Do proper filament calibration first, will simply all further tests
Really needs tuning
IS was not enabled in the printer config. Ignore this cube I'll print a new one tomorrow
eastern-cyan•16mo ago
follow this calibration procedure
https://ellis3dp.com/Print-Tuning-Guide/
@b3lmans Yo I was out on vacation for a bit and did some rework on the printer when I got back. These are my newest graphs. I think they are looking better. Any advice?
I think that peak around 125 is coming from the dayspring LED's installed near the X gantry.
I'm still running through the Elis guide but so far prints have been coming out good. I have not turned on the performance stepper code in the config file yet so can't test higher accels really
eastern-cyan•15mo ago
they are jot perfect but they look good, you can try an tension a bit more, when I say a bit more like 5 min on a watch, the upper belt
and run the linear movement analysis, from 100 to 240, post the graphs here
Oh I forgot about those. Will do tomorrow after work.
I have a sneaking suspicion the remaining vibrations are either from the LEDs or the webcam
eastern-cyan•15mo ago
the linear movement analysis graphs are equal important, do not disassemble anything,tighten the belt as I told you, run belt shaper see how the graphs look, post linear motion and belt tension graphs here, print a test after, if you are unhappy you proceed to disassemble
For sure I'll leave it as is other than the slight adjustment to the upper belt.
eastern-cyan•15mo ago
👍
mate, now I noticed, is that painting what I think it is?🤯
Haha yeah it's Starry Night. I have a few Van Gogh paintings in the house
eastern-cyan•15mo ago
is that a joke or what😂?
I have little to no control over the home decor choices 
eastern-cyan•15mo ago
😂MOMA New York
My graph is a little funky now. Just did a tension test. Havent touched anything on the printer since last time I posted a graph
@b3lmans
should I loosen the lower belt?
After doing the super slight tighten of the upper as you suggested
Heres the linear movement analysis graphs
Got the linear motion graphs. Not sure how to read these.
eastern-cyan•15mo ago
something is way too wrong with your Y axis movement
post a video while you home the printer/move in the y axis
at what speeds were you printing the test prints?
I'm printing one right now at 100mm/s top speed. I can see VFA on the left side of the print already. All the other sides look good
eastern-cyan•15mo ago
nope
160mm/s
try 140-160mm/s
I can't seem to connect to mainsail ATM. Never had this issue before. I don't want to power cycle the printer while it's actively printing so going to need a moment
I'll send a video of the homing ASAP
eastern-cyan•15mo ago
as I thought
can you hear the sound difference betwren x and y?
lower the tension for the lower belt in "5min" increments and do the belt test after each
and listen to it while homing
👍
Should I rerun the linear movement analysis as well after I get a good graph and both x and y sound good when homing?
Gotta head to bed, will continue tuning tomorrow.
eastern-cyan•15mo ago
yes, x graph is closer to what you want to have
Better or worse?
eastern-cyan•15mo ago
not this one
eastern-cyan•15mo ago
eastern-cyan•15mo ago
this one
eastern-cyan•15mo ago
these 3 are the graphs for my vcore 400, yours should be something like this
eastern-cyan•15mo ago
they are not perfect but I am happy with them, no vfa or things like that
I think mine look close enough
Just going to leave it for a while
These are my most recent graphs
I can't seem to get the peaks to line up on the belt tension graph. I checked both belts with the gates carbon drive phone app and they are tensioned to the same frequency
I did a test print of the same model that had VFA's on one side and its now coming out perfectly. I did also set the speed to 200 mm's with 3k accel.
Do you think there is some issue with the top belt somewhere?
eastern-cyan•15mo ago
can you please post pictures with both motor idler stacs?
an tighten the upper belt quarter turn
the belts are not tight enough
I'm running a print currently will send when it's done.
eastern-cyan•15mo ago
👍
Hope these are clear enough. My printers enclosed so getting a good angle on the stacks is tough
eastern-cyan•15mo ago
Have you tighten the upper belt ?
I did but my adxl has been causing issues. I'm going to install a new one tomorrow
Actually today is more accurate. I have some header pins being delivered
eastern-cyan•15mo ago
👍