Network connections
Good day. Please tell me how to implement connecting a large number of elements to the network, I depicted the operation of the network in the diagram, if you need to change it, then tell me what is the best way to proceed.
P.S. I don't understand this at all.
152 Replies
that's an extended star topology, and would totally work
benefits would be that you need less network cable and overall smaller switches over a regular star where everything is connected to one switch
downside is that you have a couple of single points of failure for multiple endpoints, the cable between the switches and the switches themselves for example
It turns out that I correctly imagined this scheme 😅
I don't quite understand this part, sorry
a lot of places choose regular star networks though, with all the offices being terminated in a patch cabinet that you then wire into a switch, which is much more flexible in the long run, but also much more expensive and harder to accomplish in an existing building (but then, I don't know of any office building that doesn't have a patch cabinet anyway)
if the local switch or the cable between the local switch and the parent switch break, then multiple PCs lose connection to the network. Usually with a centralized system, you lose one device in the case of a cable failure, and it's easier to replace the centralized switch (and more sensible to have a second, cold standby on hand) if that breaks
Can I just replace the large switch on the circuit with such a locker?
but basically, this is a perfectly valid system, especially if you're trying to save on cables and installing it in a building without existing infrastructure
hmm, that depends. A patch cabinet is basically a panel with a bunch of network cables terminated with female connectors. They look a lot like switches from the front, but it's just a bracket with a female network cable plugged into it:
there's no intelligence
basically, those cables just go out to numbered outlets in offices with long lengths of cable, so it's just a series of female-to-female network cables with some fancy mounting stuff on both ends
In fact, are they the same thing?
no, a switch and a patch cabinet are not the same
a patch cabinet is a fancy way of organizing a ton of network cables that may or may not be in use, a switch is an intelligent network device that directs traffic and connects multiple computers together
So what should I do?
I can't answer that... it fully depends on what's there already, what considerations exist for the building, what your budget is, what your experience level is...
I don't know the budget, I can only say that the building is empty
it also really depends on the layout of the building and the utilities there, including what kind of ducting is available
All I know is that there should be a video surveillance system with n number of cameras and a network system with n number of pcs
This is not such a problem, everything will go on the ceiling
I also know the bandwidth of the cable, it's 1 GigE
then what you drew is probably fine
by the way, do you have any existing equipment?
any existing connections?
or is it all brand new?
also, just keep in mind that this is a job people do
there's people who do nothing other than do network design and wire up offices for a living
this is something for someone who's actually experienced
yup, and i hate it with a passion
but i was forced to do this for 8 years
This is great news, and with cameras I can make the same connection system, the last question is also true, which is better to choose a parent switch and a child switch and what is the bandwidth of the cable between the child and parent and child switch?
There is none, I need to pick it up for purchase
you're basically and totally screwed, because this is not easy (specially keeping grubby hands off of the camera server)
you can do it, but be aware that you are not experienced and will do mistakes
probably big ones
it's all gigabit, pretty much. And you may want to do a comparison between using the extended star or a single big switch, depending on how many devices will be in the offices (and if there's expected growth, if you need wifi repeaters in there for example) and how much the small switches cost
i know i sound like a downer, but the configuration is the hardest part, and the easiest to screw up
Yes, but this will not be done by me, my task is to select equipment and design networks, and all this will be connected by other people
that's honestly the part where the biggest mistakes happen
plugging it all in is the easy part once you have the design
thinking about the future might not be a bad idea, since cat 6 can be used for 2.5gb
I thought of making it so that there was a margin of 20-25% for new connections
and depending on the work, that 1.5gb might be worth it
we've also not talked at all about what the network will be used for
yup
if it's just browsing the net and using SAAS apps, gigabit is more than plenty
editing video would require 10gb minimum
yup
photoshop and ai can be done in 1gb, but 2.5 is ideal
I'm doing office work
ai as in adobe illustrator
this is all "office work"
if it is really just basic stuff like emails and excel and facebook, 1gb is fine
but honestly, if the cost of 2.5gb isnt that much more than 1gb, go for 2.5gb
They will mainly work with documents
in a nas?
please say "in a nas that has a backup on site and a remote backup"
There will still be several routers on the network
what im asking is if you will have a dedicated file server or everybody will just have stuff in their pcs?
Yes, there will be a server
good
you should include it in the design
I added it to the scheme
is the camera server going to be connected to the internet?
Yes, as I was told, the cameras will be connected to the server, and it, in turn, will be connected to the security through the network
oh, you have to a managed switch then
so both vlans can be separated
Do you mean controllable for cameras?
no
something that can manage the network
Well, it turns out that the guards will view all the images from the cameras on the monitor
look, I don't want to be discouraging, but designing this kind of thing when you don't even know the various appropriate terms is like flipping a coin if it'll cause problems down the line
I have no way out, we don't have networkers
this is not something easy to do
I understand everything, I myself am not happy with this alignment
you may have to find a way to wiggle out of this one
this is not a task for you
do you even know which brand you will use for the devices?
I know I've been confronted with a fait accompli
how long the cable run is?
do you know the building codes for the cable runs?
Some of this is known to me
This will be known after creating the plan, I will have to calculate the length
All this is there
have you even seen the space?
What do you mean by that?
did you went to the place to look at stuff?
if you didnt, and you just look at a plant or something, it may be all wrong
lots of places do modifications that don't need any code changes, like a door being permanently closed
or cabinets somewhere
I can't go there, but I have a floor plan since I made it
that is scary
It's 2.5 thousand km from me
you were set up for failure
look for another job
this task is not for you
you cant design a network without even seeing the place
without an actual plant
I have a building plan with an accuracy of 1 mm, I know the location of the elements, except for the server ones, because they are only being designed
do you know how the cable runs will be?
do you have a plan of where the gas, water and electricity passes by?
It has not yet been laid, but will be laid on the ceiling inside the trays
Yes
do you know which cable type is allowed in a plenum space? (or how it is spelled)
also, do you have a layout of the air ducts and ac and other things where you intend to put the cable?
Yes, I have all this, my task at this stage is to design the laying of Internet cables and video surveillance cables
that rough sketch shows a solid network design, but this is more than you can chew
I made a sketch schematically, because there are a lot of rooms and I can't display from all of them, because I haven't done the project yet
how many rooms are there?
34 rooms
you will probably need some gear in the middle, to split all those rooms
usually, the max is 24 ports
I thought so, in each room there will be a commutator, and a fork to the subs inside the room, then the cable goes to the north and there it is connected in another commutator
how many stories is the building?
oof, 34 rooms is a lot more than the four you drew...
2
yes, A LOT more
its a total different game
2 switches with fiber, going to the main router
This is a diagram to understand which principle I should choose
thats my suggestion
the infrastructure is wholly dependent on the layout of the building, number of devices to connect, and the budget of the project though
fiber is cheap, but the sfp modules cost a pretty penny and not everything is compatible with everything
this is true
They will pull
Yeah, one switch for each floor, both connected with a 10gbps fiber link to the main switch in the server/network room
yup, make 2 mini networks there
then cat6 out to the next layer of switches for local connections
i would even consider going for 20 or 40gb, since it is A LOT of devices
I thought one per room, there are 4 mains outlets in the room, and already they are connected to the server
you can have small ones, but you need to split the network into 2 anyways
"already connected to the server" What do you mean?
you usually have 24 ports MAXIMUM
I thought the building was empty?
good question
Yes, it is empty
I mean, indicate on the diagram the switch in each room, from them there will be wires to the sockets, and from these switches you will throw cables to the main switch in the server room
and dont forget that you will have about 17+ cables to deal with, on each side
dont forget other gear that will need network, like printers
I'm gonna bow out of this one, if I'm honest. It's getting super complex and there's a reason I don't do this type of work anymore. This is the type of job you'd usually pay a network installer thousands for
just for the design
and someone with actual experience on how to design this
this is really way too much for you
Why with 17? I have 4 points in one room, there are 34 of them on 2 floors, 4 are connected to 1, as a result 1 cable from each room
Sorry to waste your time, I'm sorry
you have 34 rooms and those 34 will have a single switch in it, right?
Yes, that's right, it turns out that there are 17 cables per 1st floor of the building
exactly
and then, you need to have a cable to go to the "main" router/switch
and then, you need cables for wifi
Yes, but there are few of them
you probably will end up using 4-6 more spots
4
so, thats about 22-24 cables
22 cables then
now, you also need a place for printers
i highly doubt you wont have printers
or even scans
so, you will use the rest of the available ports, probably
3 more for cameras, I'm thinking, but it will fit into cable trays
oh boy
the 24 ports sound super super tight
maybe 12 and 24
if you have a 12 port switch just for the cameras, then you can use a poe switch to power them
It sounds like you need to add one more switch to the corridor to reduce the number of wires
that will cause a ton of bottle necks
try to find a centralized place for the network closet
fiber cables are cheap af
Oh I figured it out, I'll just make some trays for cables, one half will be in the right wing of the building and go to the server, and the other half in the left, I think it's great 🙂
i dont know what you're trying to say, but sounds like a bad idea
if you are going to split the network by 2, for each floor, then consider 3x12 ports on each, with fiber running to the main one
one of them with poe, to power the cameras
that one should be dedicated to the cameras, but, if you must use it for wifi, get poe wifi access points too and both in a different vlan
I did not mean to run all the cables in one coil, but to divide them into 2 coils and throw them in different parts of the building to reduce the density of wires in the tray
thats what im saying
either you have 17 rooms to a single switch, or split into 2 switches with 12 ports each
and those 2 switches just have a fiber run to the main switch/router
and a separated switch just for the cameras
but if you really really really must have wifi in the same switch, then keep the cameras in a different vlan
and that 3rd switch also goes over fiber
or, if you want, 10gb cable
2.5 or even 1 could probably do it, but i wouldnt trust it
Okay, let's do it
also, dont worry about the cost of the fiber, but worry about it all being compatible
which is where you will spend the most, suffer the most and maybe even have to return stuff
The customer will already spend, so I hope they will buy good components
if you are worried about that, then dont even suggest fiber
if you cant dictate what will be bought, keep it all in cat 7 or something
The only problem is whether they will cheat, but this will already be their problem, because they are advised how to do it better
Sorry for wasting your time, thank you so much for clarifying this information
if they cheat and stuff isnt compatible, it will still be on you
so, play it safe
Yes, but I will not be able to go there and check how they will do it, according to the documents it will be 2.5 Gbps
Thank you and Jochem again for helping me, I didn't know where else to go for help
you're welcome
2.5gb will barely be enough, with so many devices
each device will have about 2500mbits/(17x4) ~= 36.76mbits
thats less than 4.6mbytes/s EACH PC
and im not talking about wifi or other equipment
😱
10gb would be a much much much better choice (still kinda iffy), which would be about 14mbytes/s per pc
its a lot better, but it is still eh
Well, it should be enough for documents 😅
you are an youtube video away from the network being overwhelmed
2.5gb to the server is absolutely not enough
Do you think they will watch YouTube at work?
yes
where do you think that people get music from?
That's not a problem, the provider has reduced the speed for YouTube on PC by 70%, so they won't be able to watch it anyway
thats not the problem
the problem is in the internal network itself
2.5gb is not enough for about 68+ clients
also, you wont get the 2.5gb with the overhead of the network, and other conditions like temperature
I am sure that yes, there are 90 of them
if you get 2.1gb usable, its already a miracle, in my opinion
2500/90 = 27.7777...mbits = 3.47mbytes
and this is assuming 0 overhead (which doesnt exist) and perfect 2.5gb at all times
thats not enough
You're right, I completely forgot about it
you will have to go for 10gb, and even then it might be miserable
10gb, at perfect impossibly impossible conditions is about 13.9mbytes/s
Thank you bro, I thought no one would help me
you're welcome, but i wont mince my words: you're in deep shit, and this project was set for you to fail
All is well, I totally agree with you
i just hope you're aware of that
by the way, will you be responsible for buying the tools for the installers? and the rj45 plugs?
(i doubt you will need to buy the tools, but this project is a messy mess, so...)
I don't know who will be, but we don't have a network specialist6 who can pick up the equipment
if i were you, i would budget for single-strand cable and passthrough rj45 plugs and crimpers
because it sounds like you will be installing it all
Oh no, it's a nightmare
therefore my recommendation
also, buy more plugs than you think you will need
I take a stock for all the work, otherwise there will not be enough
mistakes happen, and the plugs are cheap cheap cheap (not the passthrough ones, but you will need more)
do you have enough to re-crimp everything?
I don't know yet, all this has not yet been bought, they have no idea what equipment they need
dude, you deleted that just to ping me? lol
No
lol looked like it
I never mock, I'm kind 😊
but when you plan, plan for them re-doing the entire thing (unless it is an absurd amount)
mistakes will happen, and being prepared for it will be good
otherwise, keep those for the next project
If this happens, a very sad story awaits me
therefore prevention